Sects
I am currently perusing the Song of Solomon for this Sunday Night’s sermon on Biblical love-making. I am struck by the liberty and joy of both the husband and the wife in their physical relationship. I am also impacted the clarity of the Word of God concerning these issues. And yet, God’s people have always struggled in this area. Perhaps it’s partially due to humanity’s radical abuse of God’s good gift and some bad teaching over the ages by some notable Christians:
Augustine: “Intercourse isn’t evil, but the lust and pleasure is”
Roman Catholic Church: “Intercourse is only for procreation. Otherwise it is sinful.”
Luther: “Intercourse is never without sin.”
I look forward to teaching through this vital issue and bringing the clarity of God’s Word to bear upon the subject. I think it will be liberating for many–offensive to a few. Pray for me…..g
Comments
36 Responses to “Sects”
consider it done
i like sex
sex is awesome!
Here are my priorities
Jesus,my wife-sex, sex-my wife, (the two go hand in hand and you shouldn’t have one without the other) worship- the word, my family, surfing, great music, friends, food, nice weather and ministry.
Seriously Greg, most people know that sex is sanctioned and approved by God. On that subject you will definitely be preaching to the choir. The sexual controversy of our day is sex outside marriage. That is where the church (and the world) gets caught with their pants down.
The various prudish comments by Augustines etc.. were doubtfully taken seriously by very many, if any at all!
I wonder what their wives looked like????
As always, you have my prayers, enjoy the research!
B
Oh yea! the song of Solomon is less about sex than it is about the Lords total infatuation with the nation of Israel and the Land of Israel. Jesus sees them as one. that is why He is adamantly opposed to the division of the land.
You cant separate God from His Word, and you cant separate Israel from the land. The Song of Solomon (in my own stubborn opinion) is about Jesus love for the Jews and the land of Israel. For His own reasons, He is equally passionate about both, and the sexuall enuendo of the book is the best way He can describe His feelings to the human race.
??????? agape bro!
I can’t wait to see where this goes….. My Goodness, Pastor Greg, You certainly have a nice supply of worms in your pantry…Hee hee….. I’ll comment later.
Oops, forgot to tell you… We’ll be praying for you as we do always…. Thanks for all you do!
Yes. Be very glad to pray for you. A pleasure and an honor.
I’ve heard people say that the Song of Solomon isn’t really about a man and a woman as much as Jesus’ love for the Church and/or God’s love for Israel. I know that clearly in God’s word, He loves His Church and He loves His people Israel. In reading the Song of Solomon, and the intimate, physical expressions… (Song 4), or phrases like, “that you not stir up or awaken love until it pleases”, so personal, so mutual, so physical… It goes back and forth, his love for her, her love for him. As I read through the prophets and well, the rest of the old testament, the nation Israel is described as an adulterous wife. A wife, loved by her husband, but unfaithful. One sided. Even the parallel of Jesus and the Church, how faithful are we as a bride. And yet the bride in the Song is entirely faithful, completely enraptured by the love of her beloved.
I have pondered why God would put something so physically intimate in the Bible. Attaching a typology to it makes that a little more explainable, but is that God’s genuine intent. People have distorted sex as they have every other good thing God created, but in reviewing Genesis, God says be fruitful and multiply BEFORE Adam and Eve fell. Sex was included in the activities of the garden… but not the twisted up, physical gratification kind of thing that we commonly think of. Communion between the two who are one flesh. A rejoining of that which was sundered when God removed the piece of Adam to create Eve. The Song, I believe, is a reminder that love, intimacy, sex, are ordained by God in the confines of His design.
Hey Brian,
You’re more liberated than most….I’m not as convinced as you are about SoS being primarily allegory. Perhaps the Church’s discomfort with sex has helped fuel that view. But like you, I am convinced of God’s love and covenant to Israel.
Shalom, g
Thanks Greg, SOS definitely is sexual in a beautiful way. I hope I didn’t come off too one sided, but if there is any typology referring to Christ and Israel ie… Christ and the church, then the sexuality of the poem would have to be allegoric for the Lord Himself to be the Lover????
In response to Linn’s comment about the unfaithfulness of Israel Linn is correct, but we read in Hosea 14:4, “I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely:
I think that SOS is prophetic about Gods future relationship with Israel in the Millennium. Grace and future restoration is the key.
My views on SOS solidified when I visited Israel and had a personal epiphany. It dawned on me that the Lord sees the Jews, the nation of Israel and the land of Israel in an almost singular way, not separating them.
As I considered the many geographical, livestock and vineyard references in SOS, And in SOS 4:10, the lover is called “my sister, spouse”.
SOS takes on a whole different feel standing on Mt. Carmel gazing for miles across the land, full of vineyards and flocks of goats, and wheat fields, and of course Jews.
BUT I do stand corrected to a degree! my own lover (Doreen) corrected me on the need for the church, (women especially) to be set free in the area of sensuality and Gods blessings upon it. And loves Greg’s approach on the matter.
Be that is it may, the sensuality of SOS and Gods blessings upon that aspect of human sexuality is a great secondary approach to the text that will no doubt minister healing to subject of historical taboo!!!
Especially with Greg teaching it!!
I miss you all!, Brian
Brian, we all miss you, what a great start to your post “I like ex, sex is awesome” It sure got my hubby and my attention. And all the hubbies say- “Amen”! ;) Doreen (we miss you something awful) is right on, it is an area that needs so much healing for many more women than anyone knows…
Greg, we’re all praying for ya!
c
In a paraphrased quote from a sermon by the late D.L. Moody; ‘I highly doubt that with hours of meditation upon even one scripture, we could even begin to assume that we have achieved the fulness and depth of all that which the Holy Spirit has meant to be taught to us.’
You find this concept applies with so many verses: which meaning is the right meaning? Well, maybe it’s both. Maybe it’s neither. Oh and herein lies the joy to me! The fact that the Infinite God has actually made Himself known to such a simple, simple, simple people through the Holy Scriptures is incredible. Let us continue to dive in deep!
And unfortunately me and my wife missed last Sunday evening – we were hoping so bad that it would be recorded and put on as a podcast! Shucks!
BTW- LUTHER really SAID that?? How random! What was he thinking? haha
Secondary??? Before Israel there was a man and a wife in the garden, before allegory there was a king and his bride.
Good to see you on here Brian.
How wonderful a God who loves us that He would give us His Holy Word; living, breathing, loving, embracing, teaching, directing and revealing… all so passionate in the book of Solomon.
Solomon 1:4 Draw me after you; let us run. The king has brought me into his chambers. We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine; rightly do they love you.
Being married 23 years this month, I have found my wife to be more beautiful than ever and our intimacy continues to grow stronger all the time. As we continue to grow closer to the Lord and reflect His light in our lives, as the moon does with the sun, we grow closer to each other and experience new joy all the time. I believe that this is still pale in comparison to the love He has for us and the joy He must feel as we surrender to His will for us.
Whether it is a love letter to Israel, a beautiful prose to Solomon’s bride or encouraging instruction for our marriages, it is heaven sent. It blesses me!… as do our body of believers we call His church!
I am and will continue to pray for you my brother…
~Bruce
I love that somethings really are simply , well, SIMPLE. Taking God’s word for exactly what it says.
You are always in our prayers! and have fun “shaking” things up a little. God likes us “out of our comfort zones” a little.
Jake, good point! who is the king and bride your referring too that existed before allegory?
I still prefer to think of SOS intent is to express the Lords love for the people, land and nation Israel as the priority, above his desire to liberate us sexually.
Having said that, from a middle eastern and from a puritanical perspective the women especially would find great freedom and comfort in Solomons graphic portrayal.
He definitely wrote an erotic story that is very respectful of his bride.
Maybe the two themes could share equal status? When you consider the garden of Eden scenario.
But, I still prefer to take a backseat to Gods future plan for Israel. Especially in this day and age where the church has already misappropriated so much prophecy away from Israel and onto ourselves.
Im looking forward to the podcast, Greg never ceases to nail it!
Christa, we miss you all too! Tell Kent I finally got lasik.
another interesting sublect, that made me smile! also the fact that the one blog that has brought out the men in a big fashion, has to be on this subject!!! *smile* i was reading comments and hearing the swords “ching” as they are being sharpened…
good to read your heart brian, and doreen’s too! i miss you guys alot and im glad to hear she is still keeping you in line! hahahahahaha
well this is a subject i would like to read about from you all… i am truely intrigued and have no wisdom to add to the discussion…lol…
anyway greg we will pray!
love to you all,
heidi
I am sure it will be liberating and there will be a shock factor here and there with YOUR sermon Greg but most will smile and laugh. After all lighthouse insnt exactly a conservative church. I am sure there are many marriages that need liberating.
just prayed for you, god bless you greg you have a heaven of a hard job.
I believe that relationships are a special gift from the Lord, and that when demonstrated according to biblical principles, they are in essence, a small glimpse of heaven.
To be able to open your heart and soul to another human being, male or female and stand emotionally naked before them without fear of what they might think,say or do… and to have confidence in knowing that you have the freedom not to be perfect and love will not be withheld from you. To know with confidence that because the relationship is grounded in Jesus who does not change with the ebb and flow of circumstances.. To be able to feel as if you are not only acceptable, but truly beautiful in another person’s eyes in itself…. all of this is a gift.
In this day,there has been so much abuse that brings scarring and damage to our ability to completely open up physically without fear or shame…..It seems everyon has a story to tell. But with Jesus as the connom denominator in a marriage relationshp, not only can we overcome those kids of hurts…. Wowwwwweeeeeee!!!!! The Lord will restore to us all that the canker worm has eaten, and then some!!!
So much more, a taste of Heaven.. A small picture of the relationship we will share withour Lord and King some day. We were created as triune beings to some degree with body, mind and soul. So often in this life we can only connect with another on just one or two of those levels. BUT..in Christian marriage when we are able to enjoy intimacy, pleasure and fulfillment on all three levels and know that we can humbly and lovingly give the same to our friend. Well, I just don’t know what could be better until were with Jesus.
I’m with Heidi though…. Had to laugh, hearing from Brian after such a long silence… I think you actually….. pounced on this one, Brian….!!!
Lord Jesus: Thank you for so much!!! and Thank you for our pastors and teachers. We lift them to you and ask that you give them a special measure of wisdom and Godly insight in what ever their endeavors are this week. Especially Pastor Greg as he tackles this subject. Will you prepare the ears and hearts of those that will hear the message and make way for healing, restoration and renewal in the marriage relationships and in the marriage bed? Will you give Greg the right approach that will cast a wide net to the hearts of the people and capture many with your liberating, loving values on married sex? Thank You, Thank You for loving us Jesus. In your Holy and Precious name,
Amen!!!
Good job Pastor Greg, may the Lord bless you!
Greg you did a wonderful job last night!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks everyone for your prayers. I really sensed the Lord working last night. It was at the same time strange and wonderful teaching through the Scriptures on love-making. It was a big crowd (surprise!) and many seemed genuinely blessed. But perhaps I was most delighted by some friends of Pam and mine. They are not Christians but came last night to hear what the Bible said about sex. They didn’t know if it was going to be frowned upon or whatever. I didn’t get a chance to talk to them, but they told Pam they’re coming back……g
Brian, I’ll let Kent know! I bet that will make surfing easier! ;) I know it was life changing for Kent… When we go swimming he knows which blonde is his wife now. Before Lasik he wouldn’t speak till spoken to, just in case it wasn’t me, and he certainly wasn’t gonna go plant a kiss on someone unless he was sure it was me LOL!!! It’s great to have the gift of sight again…
Greg, I am sorry that I have missed the last few sermons and espically this one. I have been sick with this stupid virus going around (pray for me)! Are you going to be putting your Sunday Night sermons on the podcast? I would love to be able to listen to them!
fun topic, wish i had been there. had to work, man work keeps getting in the way of everything. hmmmm.
Susan, I did do a little pouncing but all for the sake of lively debate on the core message of Song of Solomon. After all this blog is full of close and beloved friends, and its good to stir the pot a bit in these forums. Just being honest!
I was hoping to flush out some opinion on the central them of Song of Solomon (Thanks for the direct answer Greg)
Susan, great prayer. I love written prayers. I felt it!!!
agape always!
Hi Brian and all,
The king would be Solomon, whom wrote the song originally about his bride. It may be similar in tone and voice to God’s heart but it can’t be the central theme, there seems to be no hermeneutic to support it. Hosea on the other hand contains an allegory of God and the nation Israel.
jake you better watch your self with your big words! doesnt pastor jake have a ring to it? *smile*
Brandon,
I know this isn’t a love blog, haha, but just want the whole world to know I love you!
Your Loving Wife,
Jessica
Jake, no doubt Solomon wrote to his bride, but the reference to the land, livestock and the Holy city thrust it way beyond the human relationship. I see it as a prophetic poem about the Lambs love for His wife the new Jerusalem. See Rev 21:10-11
So, while Solomon was saying one thing God is saying another.
Thy hair as a flock of goats, thy teeth as a flock of sheep, thine eyes the fishpoools in heshbon and nose as the tower of Lebonon.
Realize that am throwing my musings out there for the sake of dialogue. Im not married to these ideas, just leaning heavily.
Thanks bro! Baja 09 ?????????? Doreen and I are planning on going as long as the Lord provides???
We’re in!!!
I liked your bride of Christ comment on your latest podcast, it’s got me doing my homework which is good, not sure were I land on it but that’s not relevant to it’s reality if is what it seems.
Brian:
We love you and miss you. I giggle every time I see your posts because I so love your bold and shameless heart. God has showm me many things as a result of watching your journey with Him over the years…
We all miss you, Doreen and those crazy kids of yours (ours… I claim them as my own, too!)…. You know Jake & I live only a block apart. He has an extra room. I have two extra rooms… Isn’t it about time for a visit to Idaho?????
Love to see you!!!
Ohhhhhhhh good idea Susan… so when ya coming to visit Nickens???
Susan, We’ve been discussing it. We were slated to come for the building dedication but the very same day we had an appointment to look at a possible church facility. The deal fell through and we missed the dedication.
How about mid to late January early Feb??
Christa, your right, surfing, swimming etc… is much better. I went surfing in Puerta Vallarta after the Lasik and it was great. I could acknowledge the locals without wondering if they were glaring at me.
Jake, I heard that you job expired and I knew that meant good things for the Baja dream. Surfers dont have real jobs, it gets in the way of life. It so happens it works for church planting too.
Thanks for the warm words everyone, we soooooo miss you all.
The message on Sunday night was truly blessed and spoke to some issues that were very freeing in my marriage for both my wife and myself.
I had spoken to a friend about the fact that you, Pastor Greg, would be tackling this issue and he said exactly what you had stated earlier; that too many churches shy away from this issue and that does no favors in strengthening relationships by not addressing it.
Thank you for being faithful to the Lord in one more important area.
It is a great blessing.
~Bruce
Pastor Greg, I am more than thankful for this series on marriage that God has put on your heart to teach. It means more to me than you may ever know. I am thankful for your work and for the grace that God has put on this. I pray this series will save many marriages in the church! ;)
Roman Catholic Church: “Intercourse is only for procreation. Otherwise it is sinful.”
I couldn’t help but get this song stuck in my head…
There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
there are Hindus and Mormons and then
there are those that follow Mohammed -but-
I’ve never been one of them.
I am a Roman Catholic
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about Catholics is
they’ll take you as soon as you’re warm.
You don’t have to be a six-footer.
You don’t have to have a great brain.
You don’t have to have any clothes on, you’re
a Catholic the moment dad came
…Because…
Every sperm is sacred,
every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Let the heathens spill theirs,
on the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
each sperm that can’t be found.
Every sperm is wanted,
every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed,
in your neighborhood.
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
spill theirs just anywhere
but God loves those who treat their
semen with more care.
Every sperm is useful,
every sperm is fine.
God needs everybodies,
mine, and mine, and mine.
Let the pagans spill theirs
on mountain hill and plain.
God shall strike them down for
each sperm that’s spilled in vain.
Great stuff indeed.
I wonder what kind of weight this puts on a wife who struggles with infertility?