I Resemble That Remark….
Jake came to me a few weeks ago and said, ‘I’ve got a crazy idea. It’s probably really stupid, but, here goes….I’ve been grieved by how the media portrayed Lighthouse as picketers and Mormon-bashers and I wonder if we can’t steal back the narrative.’ Do go on, Jake. ‘Well, what if we picketed ourselves? What if we protested the fact that we’re not what we should be? What if we held up signs that admitted our struggles with sin and then pointed to Jesus as the only answer? Maybe TimesNews would cover it….’
After Jake shared his idea (which had been kicked around in his LifeGroup), I thought, ‘Either this is the stupidest thing I’ve heard….or it’s pure brilliance!’
Protesting ourselves….I love it! So I gave Jake my pastoral blessing.
The truth is, as followers of Jesus, we ought not to come to our culture in pride and arrogance, but rather, in humility and love, as people who have been rescued in spite of ourselves.
Your thoughts?
g
BTW, there was someone from TimesNews at the service……
Comments
129 Responses to “I Resemble That Remark….”
LOVE IT!!!! and i had to laugh it coming from jake!!! i have been part of his ‘holy schemes’ before…. *big toothy grin* … love to see him still in action!
As part of the “picketers” it was interesting to see the reaction of the people driving down Eastland today, from friendly waves, people averting their eyes, the angry looks, and even somebody yelling profanities as they entered the parking lot. I was just blown away, but my favorite story was this, I held a sign that said “I Doubt God” and as I was holding the sign, someone drove by and looked at me and mouthed “Me too.” It almost brought tears to my eyes. We were trying to be transparent and here were other members of the fellowship following suit, and I think that was the point. I was totally blessed by getting to hold a sign today.
H.A.N.D. (Have a nice day), DJ
I have to admit that I felt a little intimidated pulling into the parking lot and even walking into the building this morning. I thought to myself, “here it comes. We did this in front of the Mormon Temple and now it’s coming back to bite us in the butt. We getting it our first day in our new building.” Then when I got inside and saw a “pickiter” inside, I looked at husband and said that was crossing a line. They should not be allowed in our building for those purposes. LOL… then we talked to the young man holding the sign and found out it was us!!! What a great thing. I felt kind of dumb for feeling the way I did but being new to Lighthouse, I don’t know many people yet so I had no clue. But what a great idea Jake! Next time, I hope I can be apart of your great plans! :)
As my family and I approached the church on Sunday for our first service at Eastland and saw the Picketters my first thought was, “Great we can share our love with them and inivte them to church.” Then I approached one of them and realized, hey this is one of ours. He invited us to learn the meaning behind the picketting by going in and enjoying service. AWSOME!!! We have got some brilliant kids in our youth group.
It was interesting hearing people all over the parking lot discussing what was going on. One somewhat humorous comment came from 2 ladies walking in together. The one said,” I don’t get it” and the other one said, “neither do I.”
Jake, what an eye-opening idea. I know it smacked me up the side of my head. It sure screams out to our culture too. It’s only Jesus!
i have a brilliant Brother-in-law! Wish I could have been there!
I don’t know how much of the narrative you are going to steal back with what could be seen as nothing much more than a publicity stunt.
How about making a formal apology to members of the LDS church and in the future rely on positive, uplifting things to draw more followers instead of trying to discredit the LDS church by picketing and holding anti-Mormonism gatherings?
Now THAT’S a story I think the Times-News would cover.
the pot,
i suppose they should be arrested next, right robert?, last i heard we were still in america, freedom of speech still being very important.. which is the same freedom you are using, 9i repeat using0, here on this blog, greg doesnt have anything to apologize forwith you…. the truth is his right to preach, and live by…. if you felt threatened by a few people with signs, why should we not feel the same about you being here on this blog? your anti-lighthouse propaganda has got to stop… sound familiar?
from the kettle (one of them)
So the other night I had to laugh. I woke up around 3:45 am monday morning to let my dog out and when i opened the door i noticed something very strange on my front porch, all the signs from the protest sunday morning arranged in front of my house. My first thought was fear, but then i checked my email and my good friend Jake (the same guy who made all the signs for the protest and organized it) had sent me a message saying “take a picture for me” and i knew i had been “punked”. Man i love my friends, i guess at least they were recycling.
Robert,
I, for one, will never appologize for the truth. Regardless of your trite and redundant efforts to demean Christians that follow the one and only true God of the Bible. Your continuous derogatory efforts to make some feel guilty are not new. Mormons, for many years, have used the anti pejoritive tactics in an attempt to stifle those that oppose their views. I challenge you to expand your studies to include the truth of Gods word and read more than what the LDS church publishes and approves for your narrow view of Christ and His holy word. I commend you for sticking with us and I pray for you continually that you will seek truth and not the false christ if the mormon church.
“Far too many Mormons automatically assume that Christians who wish to challenge LDS presuppositions are somehow motivated by hate. Such an assumption seems to be borne more out of laziness on the part of the accuser rather than the result of critical thinking skills. It is easy to accuse someone of hatred; after all, that word gets a lot of mileage in our dumbed-down culture. The intellectually indolent person somehow feels no need to evaluate what has been said once he has successfully assassinated a person’s character. However, when Mormons flippantly throw down the hate card, they certainly run the risk of bearing false witness”. http://www.mrm.org/topics/miscellaneous/anti-mormon-the-mormon-n-word
God Bless,
~Bruce
I meant to place the “anti” (in the statement above)in quotes to refer to the continuous eforts of Robert to throw out the repititious “anti-mormon(ism)” statements he holds so dear to.
Hey, Robert:
Our protest was a public statement of truth about our human condition. That we are sinners in need of grace. Inside the building the signs continued to pose a question about what we can do about the issue of selfishness, temptation, spiritual laziness.. and then, we were reminded that there is nothing we can do to rid ourselves of sin completely, but to put our trust and faith in Jesus.
Our protest was a gut-honest assessment of ourselves, encouraging those who attend Lighthouse to have the same honesty about the things they struggle with. It had nothing to do with you, with the LDS faith and it was not to gain anything from the public, but rather to offer transparency about what we think of ourselves and offer the hope there is in Jesus as the answer to our condition. A victorious life that is ours through the shed blood of Christ.
You should have been there. I invited you..
C’mon…. (be brave) and check us out… you would have liked the message. It was about being connected, having friends, sharing life together and building each other up.(RU Surprised?) We love you, Robert… We think you are worth all of the trouble we have brought upon ourselves in the papers, they guy yelling out of his car window at us to go to hell… us mormon-hating @&#^&#$#@..(yikes!) was that a friend of yours?
Seems we just can’t win… even on those points when when we can agree with you.
Susan
Acts 2:42 and they continued on in the apostles doctrine in fellowship, the breaking of bread, and in prayer.
I find persecution to be an interesting thing. I think it was Paul who said, “rejoice in the Lord always, again I will say rejoice.” (Phil 4:4). Now, he was in prison when he wrote this remark. Imagine being in prison, not a concrete cell, but cold wet mud. You have been pretty beaten up. Your in absolute pain. You have been persecuted because you stood up for Christ. What will you do? Complain, whine, or rejoice and pray for those who persecuted you. Paul’s reaction was that of rejoicing and praying.
Continuing the above thought. I think as Christians this is what we should expect. We come with the truth and people hate that. We don’t like our sins exposed to us. We are prideful and arrogant and would much rather do things all on our own and without God. We need Him though. I know I do. I fall short every day and it’s only the blood of Christ that saves me. Honestly, I don’t expect people to like me. Why should they? I am nothing but a sinful person who deserves death myself.
We are not promised a life of health and prosperity here on earth. It is more likely to be the other way around. More like Jesus. Poor and eventually murdered. It seems to me we are more likely to go through hell on earth than anything. But, in Christ there is perfect peace. My life is eternal and it is just getting started! I can’t wait to be face to face with my savior. It makes sense now, Rejoice in the Lord, again I say Rejoice!
I don’t know if any of this pertains to this particular blog. I guess my intention is to show like everyone else that we are sinners and need Jesus. We screw up all the time and need help. I guess to put the input in on the protest, genius!
I think the protest was genius too. I wish I could have been there to see it!
Robert,
You see. We do not feel that we are perfect or better that anyone else. We know that we are sinners:” For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. And it’s not that we were holding anti-mormonism meetings. They were simply discussions to help us better understand the ways of mormonism, most of them were taught by former members of the LDS church. What does that say to you, huh? Now, if we have the guts to stand outside and publicly admit or shortcommings, can you not have the guts to come and visit us one Sunday morning? Come and worship with us with an open mind and heart, and feel the Holy Spirit wash over you. I know I feel Him every Sunday. God moves through our church in amazing and wonderful ways. Church starts at 10:30 am. Be there, just once. We love you and are never ceasing in prayer for you. The fact that you are still with us a willing to take in everything that we are saying to you is a good sign that the Lord is obviously doing some work with you. Hope to meet you in church on Sunday. :)
Robert,
My husband wants me to extend an invitation to you to come by our house and meet in a private enviroment. He is an ordained minster and wants to meet with you. He says bring your book or what ever you wish so you can talk. We love to entertain so I will even cook dinner for you! If you are interested let me know.
i love my church, you all make me smile! starting with jake and ending with these comments….
the lord himself is so creative, look around us at nature, and the animals, at people… so creative… have you looked at a giraffe upclose?…. and i love that our church steps behind creativity in so many forms….
*big toothy grin*
ahhh… the protest.. when this discusion was first brought up, i laughed and i believe the words that came from my mouth were “oh jake, that would be soo classic” and im pretty sure my thoughts on the whole idea ended with our discusion that day..
the fact that we actually protested, jake, the fact that you got those signs together bro.. man. what a blessing that was to be a part of. when i pulled into the parking lot, i was SO stoked to see you guys with the signs! and then joining the protest.. man.. God really used us in a great way that morning. and personally, its had a big impact for myself this past week.
and for robert, bro, God bless you man. im not gonna bash. God bless you, thats all. and hey, you really should think of stoppin by one of these sundays. i assure you, you will walk out changed, touched, blessed. Greg is a wonderful teacher and im sure OUR Lord will use him for you too, just like he did for me.
…and who would of thought holding a sign above your head for an hour, hour and a half would be so easy, not to mention fun/ fulfilling.. God works wonders, agree?
peace and love
jared
Nice.
Reminds me of
Matthew 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
Could someone give me a clarification, I’ve had conflicting reports, did anyone actually carry picket signs at the temple?
I originally heard that some folks just handed out tracks.
Hey Dan,
Yes, there were signs. Jerry (from Lighthouse) held a sign that said ‘SacredorSecret.org’. He was pointing people to a website that has information concerning LDS beliefs and how they are incongruent with the true gospel. The website was getting over 6000 hits a day during this time (a vast increase over the norm-PTL!).
Blessings brother,
g
Greg, thanks for the clarification.
Way to go Jerry! Not many would love enough to risk having motives being misunderstood.
Sounds like the sign was not a protest sign but just a proclamation.
What is next guys? A target placed on your shirts? Well, I guess if you have the Shield of Faith on, the firey darts will just be wasted.
This has caused me to smile.
Blessings
Cheers Dan,
To clarify, there were some other people who were also protesting the temple. I had a good friend accosted in the temple parking lot by a lady who chased him down and yelled at him not to go in for a tour. It really broke our hearts that the LDS community saw this as a Lighthouse sponsored event. I know that the Lighthouse body is grateful for the LDS community here in our city as you are for those in Elko, since they take care of many people, help out in many ways and make great neighbors. For as much as we appreciate them, we still must draw clear doctrinal lines, that we did not come up with but God’s word clearly defines. If it takes us wearing shirts with targets to love the LDS well, I know you’ll be right there with us, sporting a shirt.
Well I certainly hope that everyone acknowledges that they are sinners. Nope, there’s not a perfect one in the bunch of us. We need Christ, who died for our sins.
Nobody was claiming to be without sin, Robert. I know the Mormons realize their need for a savior, however they don’t worship the same God we do. They worship a God that has a wife and billions of “spirit children.” A god that came to earth and physically had sex with a human (Mary). A god that was once a man but did “good things” and became a god. You can ask this god to save you, but guess what? He isn’t real, so salvation from this god is impossible. Only through the BIBLICAL God can we be saved through Jesus Christ. This is all we want the Mormons to know. I know that before I was saved it would have been nice if someone would have told me I was going to wrong way. I might not have listened, but who knows? I might have.
Are you listening, Robert?
C’mon Robert…. This Sunday, we’re going to be talking about communion…. It shouldbe really interesting from an LDS perspective. You might find it intriging. U guys use regular bread with yeast and water as your “sacrement” don’t you? There is some very interesting significance in those elements in comparrison to the symbolic blood and unleavened bread… If for no other reason than for me to quit bugging you, you should come visit us. I for one would be thrilled to finally meet you face to face. As I am sure many of us would….
Blessings to you.
jake,
having dejvu’….i remember a certain youth group girl armed with spray paint, stencils, and t-shirts… that could fulfill those target t-shirts!!!! hmmmmmmmmm… i feel another “holy scheme” coming on,hahahhaha! love it!!!
smiling with the crew!
heidi
Dan,
Check out the Times News article and online video link below:
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2008/07/18/news/local_state/140601.txt
Dan, Greg and All,
I think it was at our second (maybe first) leadership retreat that Brian N said we should get T shirts with a big red target on them, because when we begin to serve the Lord we become High profiled in the battle of the Lord. I think we should do that and add (front) Go Ahead and Shoot (back) I’m Already Dead (in Christ).
That could be a real conversation starter.
Stimulus leads to response.
Ken
I was thinking about the caption… Go Ahead…. Make my Day!
Susan,
I have to admit that it crossed my mind also.
Jennifer,
Slowly put your hands up and step away from your anti-Mormonism material (smile).
First you need to know why the LDS church believes as it does, and what it doesn’t believe. You aren’t going to get this from holding anti-Mormonism meetings that spotlights bitter former ex-Mormons. For one thing, we believe in the virgin birth. Another thing we believe is that we are spirit children of our Heavenly Father.
As you realize, the idea that we can be joint heirs with Christ and progress unto godhood is a pretty heady doctrine. It’s not something we go up to complete strangers and say, “I’m a Mormon and I believe that one day I can become a god.”
We learn about the gospel line upon line, precept by precept. It’s milk before meat.
Like I’ve repeated several times, I respect the Lighthouse CF for some of the good things it does, but in all due respect I believe you don’t have the full truth, and to compound it you kick against the pricks, fighting against the church of God that has been restored to this earth.
God bless,
for you who haven’t read this yet … It’s not official church writing but I think he generally has some pretty good stuff.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml
Robert:
Your “Prophet” Brigham Young says differently about the virgin birth…. Journal of discourses 1:50-51. Why is it that I know that and you don’t? Respectfully, it’s what we have been trying to say all along. Believe what you want. Accept the eternal consequences for whatever you choose to believe… cool, you have a right to do that.. but, understand why you believe what you believe. There is so much factual evidence that refutes your arguement. We’ve been over it all with you. So you are a Mormon. Okay. stay a mormon if you want. Now that we have established that you are going to stay LDS…. what harm then is there of exploring all of this for your self?
By the way…. we are talking about prayer in church on Sunday, not Communion. I spoke too soon. Communion will be on the following Sunday (or Saturdat nite)…BUT I have no doubt you would find the teaching for either intriguing and insightful from your well-rooted LDS perspective….. PPPpllleeeaaaaasssseeee come????
Is it okay if we still pray for you?
By the way…. I read some of your stuff, Very interesting indeed. Biblical,no.
Hey all,
The TimesNews has a story on our protest in today’s (Saturday’s) paper……
Susan, you lost me again. The LDS church believes in the virgin birth. Maybe you can explain to me the whole virgin birth and exactly how it was accomplished, but being the imperfect person that I am, I can’t. Mary, a virgin, gave birth to the Son of God.
Oh, and you ask how come you know that quote from Brigham Young? Well I doubt you have been diligently studying LDS church books about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Could it be possible that you have been diligently studying anti-Mormonism Web sites and literature? That quote from Brigham Young fits in with the virgin birth.
And I guess biblical to you is everything that fits in with your beliefs. Everything else you throw out and say whoever holds those beliefs doesn’t have a leg to stand on.
At least I appreciated Pastor Greg’s comments to another person who wrote in on the Times-News Web site. I don’t want to put words in his mouth, but Greg seemed to agree that sometimes you just have to appreciate the other person’s viewpoints and agree to disagree. I trust in the Spirit to lead and guide me.
Have a great day,
I’m tired of hearing about “anti-mormonism” literature. All that means is anything that the mormons don’t agree with. Robert, if I only read church approved documents on the LDS faith, I won’t learn a darn thing about it besides what the latest “prophet” wants me to know. This is why a lot of “anti-mormonism” folks know more about the religion. Because they are willing to research it from all angles, not just ones approved by the church.
Also, your comment on us only believing parts of the Bible that fit our beliefs. That’s ridiculous! I believe everything in the Bible. I know, you’ll post something about baptism for the dead or some other thing, but here’s the deal. We believe the Bible in context…meaning we read more than one verse to find out what it means. Like, we read more than the old testament to know that we no longer need temples…We don’t try to twist the Bible to fit our beliefs. I have a mormon sister who recently told me that she found evidence in the Bible for multiple levels of heaven. She showed me a passage where it talked about “the heavens.” Because it was plural it had to mean the different kingdoms in heaven. Although what it actually means is the sky…the stars and planets and such. This is what happens when we look at the Bible through a mormonism scope. The Bible tends to get twisted around to try to coincide with mormon doctrine. It doesn’t work.
Maybe you can help me out, but it seems that these blogs are really pushing emphasis upon believers being sinners and living sinful lifestyles and then proclaiming that it is ok, and then qouting Rom 3:23 which is directed in context toward mankind apart from Christ left to himself, but since i am saved ie prayed a prayer they are saved, is this really true?
Scripture I thought proclaimed the gsopel of holiness? Our Lord proclaimedLuke 13:3
3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish,
Peter then preached it
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them,”Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
What does it mean to repent, I am sure it doesnt mean to continue on living in sin. In fact to a guy in the church that was dealing with lust and sexual perversion Paul wrote,1 Cor 5:11
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.
Again my understanding of the scripture is that we are called saints, if we are still sinners than perhaps we still need the Law 1 Tim 1:8-9
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners
So that you will repent of your sin and turn to Jesus who sets us free from the sinful flesh.
I end with,
.
Sorry pressed wrong button, but here is what I end with,1 Cor 6:9-11
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Are we deceived into thinking that Christians are different than sinners only because we prayed a prayer, or is there something more? Just a thought please correct me, because if there is an excuse to live in sin and go to heaven I could sure use it.
Robert,
I was reading your comment to Jennifer from Sept. 20th and I quote
“First you need to know why the LDS church believes as it does, and what it doesn’t believe. You aren’t going to get this from holding anti-Mormonism meetings that spotlights bitter former ex-Mormons. For one thing, we believe in the virgin birth. Another thing we believe is that we are spirit children of our Heavenly Father.
As you realize, the idea that we can be joint heirs with Christ and progress unto godhood is a pretty heady doctrine. It’s not something we go up to complete strangers and say, “I’m a Mormon and I believe that one day I can become a god.” ”
I am immediately reminded of a passage in Isaiah 14:13-14 where another created being asserts his five wills…..”For thou hast said in thine heart I will ascend into the heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the side of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds: I will be like the most High.”
Satan’s fall was due to pride and his proclamation that he “will be like the most High God.” Respectfully, you and your church are playing with fire. To be a “joint heirs” with Christ does not mean to “progress unto godhood,” it means to enjoy the bounty of His sacrifice to and for us. If your rich uncle dies and you’re his only “heir,” you don’t become your rich uncle………you just enjoy his bounty.
Just something to chew on.
In Jesus,
Leita
Jason,
Sorry, but I have no idea what you’re talking about. I haven’t seen a comment yet that implied that we are enjoying sinful lives. Yes, we all sin…we know that. There is no such thing as a perfect person. The difference is, we have Christ in our lives. We die to ourselves every day, and decide each day that we will pick up our crosses and follow Christ. The difference between Christians and non-Christians isn’t that we simply said a prayer, but that we have put Christ at the center of our lives.
Leita,
God bless you! Thanks for your comment.
Cheers Jason,
“Are we deceived into thinking that Christians are different than sinners only because we prayed a prayer, or is there something more? Just a thought please correct me, because if there is an excuse to live in sin and go to heaven I could sure use it.”
As you know, christians are not different than non-believers because they said a prayer, christ followers are distinguished by being “born again” a tossed around term that, as you know has it’s root in Corinthians were Paul states that if we are in Christ we are a new creation. The distinguishing characteristic of being born again is a desire to please God, I hope that this is your greatest desire despite your daily practices. If so, Christ is faithful and able to change you, The purpose of the protest was not to boast about our sin, it was to humbly admit that we, those who have received such great grace, still struggle and because of this we have no right to condemn the world. Instead we must approach our community as those who have received unmerited grace.
If you would like, I would be glad to grab a coffee with you and discuss this further.
Thanks,
Jake
You know, back to the theme of this blog…Humanatarian efforts…. My daughter had another brilliant idea she shared with me yesterday. (She said she thought Jake was rubbing off on her. I agree.) She thought it would be way cool to have some teams.. ( maybe even life group teams) who , once a month targeted some type of community service…. like bagging groceries for people at Winco, or.. cleaning up someone’s parking lot, or offering services of yard clean up for an elderly couple , or organizing different neighborhood barbecues.. just stuff. She had some great ideas as to how to organize the effort, too…. Just for the purpose of blessing them.
Okay, Robert….. back to our theological discussion of Brigham Young’s position on the virgin birth….
The Doctrine of discourses 1:50-51 says, “When the virgin Mary conceived of the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who was the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle [body], it was begotten by his Father in heaven after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first elderly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession… Jesus, our elder brother was begotten IN THE FLESH by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden who is also our Father in Heaven”
Please explain to me how this testifies of Mary being impregnated by the Holy Ghost and remaining a virgin until the birth of Jesus.
Blessings… See you Sunday?
Hello Leita
Thanks for your response.But I dont recall saying that you were all enjoying living in your sin. Whether you enjoy it or not the scripture I do not believe is concerned, but I do believe that it is concerned about sinners proclaiming themselves saved based upon a faith that is not based upon repentance.
James 4:7-9 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
Again if you say that you are a sinner, consider using a concordance to study the word and the context surrounding it. Because what I have noticed is that it is not something I should be proclaiming myself to be, unless i am speaking past tense or apart from Christ.
Prov 11:31
If the righteous will be recompensed on the earth, How much more the ungodly and the sinner.
And if we think that is just an Old Testament principal Peter qoutes it.
1 Peter 4:17-18 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
“If the righteous one(WHICH IN THIS CONTEXT WOULD BE THE BELIEVER) is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner(WHICH WOULD BE THE NONBELIEVER) appear?”
You say that no one is perfect and that is true, we will always be fighting temptation and learning to love greater, however that is not the same as living in sin.
And lastly you said that we are different not because of A prayer but because we have Jesus in our lives, and this is true but you cannot then turn around and say with Jesus in the center of our lives we can still live in sin.
1 John 3:4-9
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Thanks and I am not trying to mean just curious. Love you guys.
Hey Jake,
No thanks for the coffee, at this time maybe as I get more comfortable.
I am sorry if you think that I was condemning you that was not my intent. My only intent is to really study this out. in reply to when you stated,
The distinguishing characteristic of being born again is a desire to please God, I hope that this is your greatest desire despite your daily practices.
I think that if we disconnect our proclamation of being born again with our daily practice we are decieved,
Luke 6:43-44
“For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit.
I think the sign that was being shown to the community”I Lust” I covet etc. speak in present tense. I may have just misunderstood, I am just worried that as a church we may think it ok to be living these lifestyles and going through “life long” struggles against what God has already crucified and at some point it becomes not a struggle but a lifestyle that is condemned by scripture.
Being free from willful sin is expected and can be done and that is what we should strive for and preach, freedom in christ from the sins that bind us.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you MAY NOT sin. And IF anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
I doubt John writing this considered it impossible.
Hey jason. I am liking your thoughts but I have a question. Do you still struggle with sin? I love Jesus, yet I am not Jesus, and so I still struggle with sin. I don’t like it but the truth of the matter is I still sin. It is our nature. David said, “from the womb I was born a sinner.” (Psalm 51) Paul said, “what I do, I don’t want to do, and what I don’t want to do I do.” (Romans 7)If you ask me, it sounds like the Apostle Paul himself still sinned even while being saved. He wasn’t afraid to admit it to others either.He said that he is the greatest sinner he knows. He wasn’t boasting in this but confessing.
I think our goal as a church was simply to show that we are sinners. It wasn’t a boast. Rather, it was an act of humility. I need Christ. Apart from Christ my sin is on me and I am condemed. The flip side is that Christ took my sin upon himself for me so that in Him we may be free. Please don’t get Jesus and religion mixed up. Jesus was never pleased with the religous people who always tried to do their best, never admitting they had sin, but yet they never knew the real Christ. It is so easy for us to get caught in religion and it can be such a dangerous place.
As Christians we will always strive to be more like Christ and free from sin but the struggles and temptations to sin will always be there.
I hope we can keep this dialouge going. Seek Chirst always.
Hi Jason,
“No thanks for the coffee, at this time maybe as I get more comfortable.
I am sorry if you think that I was condemning you that was not my intent. My only intent is to really study this out. in reply to when you stated,”
No problem on the coffee. The reason I invited you for a face to face dialog is so that I could understand you better. As you can tell I enjoy the blogs but they are limited in communicating when compared to talking with someone. For example “I am sorry if you think that I was condemning you” I don’t feel condemned at all. I am in fact glad that you are not just taking what a church says to you is ok, but instead wrestling with it and holding it up to God’s word. I don’t believe I could do a better job responding to you then Michael did above, but if you would like I would be glad too respond. For tonight though, it’s to bed I go.
So I was quite unsuccessful at falling asleep. Now I got some melatonin onboard, so I have about 20 minute before I fall asleep and drool all over my mac.
“coincidently” when I picked up my bible after writting my last post I read something that is central to our discussion: Romans 7:21-25 21
“So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”
Our hearts desire is central to the issue in that it reveals that we have been “born again” by the power of Christ (read Romans 6 for the details) It seems from reading your post and I hope I am not assuming, that the issue at hand is grace. You bring up a great point in the verse from Luke and Christ elaborates on this in John 15:
5:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Good trees need pruning and it seems the one doing the work/striving is the Father. I am reminded of that great quote from Paul to the Philippians 1 6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Paul in Romans was unable even as a believer to strive against his flesh, so he cried out for a deliver, a savior.
The striving that we do as Christ followers is composed of humbling ourselves, admitting we have no ability within ourselves to change.
Here are some additional verse that may help make the idea that Christians sin in a more practical light:
James 5:15-16 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
I wish I could hold a sign that said “I used to covet” “I used to lust” “I used to have a tendency to bow to false Idols” I used to be proud” but as I look at my life, sadly this is not the reality and so as the progressive narrative said on the day of the protest, “who will save me? who will change me?” Jesus, and because of Jesus, I can say “I covet less”
To tell people they cannot admit publicly their sins, is to ask them to lie. We are hungry for intimacy, to be able to say I struggle with this, please don’t condone it but walk with me through it, get your hands dirty wrapping the wounds of a friend but do not stand back and judge.
Sunday’s sermon was a great one and anyone who missed it missed out on a great blessing. The message was about prayer, and how prayer can change us. I’ve noticed alot of debating going on between Robert and some of the others. First Robert I am an ordained minister of non-denominatioon. I am not ordaind to be a judge of anyone. I believe we both could get some insite if we could meet. as for anyone else I recomment we all practice what was preached in church and pray for other’s and ourselves. Any church that claims they are the only true churcha and there for the only one who is going to me saved they are wrong. The only way to Salvation is through Jesus Christ, and anyone who believes in him and accepts him will be saved. As for the virgin birth, if Jesus was not born of the virgin, then he was just a man and there is no way to salvation. Again as Pastor Greg pointed out prayer is the key to clearity. We must all pray and our relationship with God will help us grow in our lives. Robert I would love to meet with you and talk more about God and Jesus and doctrine if you’re interrested. I would love to understand where mormanism comes from, I know Christianity comes from Christ. Anyone interrested in further communications please let me know. My wife and I love to entertain and to discuss the Bible.
Jason,
Blogs, E-mail even letters are a funny thing………I agree with Jake, one on one contact is much better in the development of a friendship and discernment of the heart than blogging…….check out the other blog “This Little Light of Mine.”
I just want to set the record strait, Jason………,no other intent here, but your comments should have been directed at Jennifer. The only response I have written here, until now, was to Robert.
However, this response is a perfect reflection of just what Jake, Jennifer, Michael and you have been discussing………………,you see I worry about what people think of me, this is translated as pride, which is a sin. I cry out (repent) to the Lord often concerning the waywardness of mind and so long to be a mirror image of Him, but as long as I am in this fleshly tent I will struggle with sin.
I think as a culture we have gotten away from being authentic, we tend to “cover-up, put on an act,” what ever platitude you want to assign it. The fact is, “born again believers” are not perfect people; we never will be perfect people on this earth and in these fleshly bodies. When I die, I will see clearly, right now I see dimly, but when I behold the face of my Savior I will see crystal clear and will no longer struggle in my tent of flesh (1Cor.13:12, 1John 3:2). Until that time, the best I can do is be honest and transparent to my sisters and bothers in Christ, as well as to those living “in and for the world.” Is this easy for me, is it comfortable …………no, but in confessing I am set free, my sin is not just covered, it is taken away ( 1John 1:8-9) and hopefully my confession inspires transparency in a sister or bother in Christ. Just because we confess we are sinners doesn’t imply we are practicing sin. (1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin…,the word “commit” here is translated in the original text “practice”) It is a matter of one’s heart and level of commitment to Christ. The process of sanctification.
My original post here was in response to Robert and the Mormon doctrine of “becoming a God,” which is directly linked to prideful thinking…………,thus my confession. To have a humble and contrite heart is my prayer. I am committed to the call to holiness in 1John 3:1-10. You all know the story of the ham and eggs………………,the chicken was involved, but the pig was committed.
In Jesus,
Leita
Sorry Leita I read the Blog wrong I gues I thought it belonged to the statement above it. I think you hit the nail on the head. The word commit does speak of Lifestyle, and that was my only point.
As far as you saying that we only see through a mirror dimly now, but then face to face. What a great day that will be. The reflecting the image of Christ in perfection was not my issue.
I was more concerned with the scripture, that is not dim, but pretty black and white concerning the practicing of sin.
And as you said confession is very important, and as you stated even confession is more than just admitting of sin. Because later on in that same verse it says that he will not only forgive but cleanse that particular sin from our lives and all other unrighteousness as well.
Once again sorry I read the captions on the blog wrong, God bless.
hey Micheal thanks for the reply
Do I struggle with sin. It depends on what you mean by struggle. But the importance of studying the scripture is not interpreting it according to my personal experience, but by faith believeing what it states.
You are right I do believe that we are born with a sinful nature the problem is the power has been broken.
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
The term might be done away with in the Greek means to render it powerless.
So then how do we look at Romans 7. Well he states at the beginning of it that when the Law came, it condmened him and he became subject to law of sin and death. Do you think this applies to a believer I dont. Paul is stating the problem that everyone faces, knowing the Law but not able in the flesh to keep it.
Howver he doesnt stop there, he goes on to say that as a believer having been given the spirit of God is now able to win this battle.
Rom 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:12-14
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:9
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
You stated that Jesus paid the penalty for your sin and that is true, but it stops well short of what Jesus death actually did. As I showed in Rom 6 it also set you free from your sinful nature and gives you as a showed in Rom 8 a spirit to walk in in order not to fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Religion is not a bad thing. Religion is the outward practice of an inward faith James would say a man that proclaims faith without works ie religion is dead. James used the term religion shouldnt we.
James 1:27
27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Again my only complaint is using terms that are not biblical .”I am a sinner” which you said Paul said he was the biggest sinner. I know what verse you are trying to qoute but read the before and after of the context Paul is speaking about his natural without christ state proven by his persecution of the saints.Not his current lifestyle.
Also the term religion which we give a negative connotation which scripturally is used positively. We need to go back to the scripture and qoute it not each other.
Again I need to tell the emotion behind this letter is not mean spirited or mocking but loving and concerned. Please dont misunderstand me.
Jake
You said perhaps the issue is grace. I understand grace but maybe different than most. Have you heard Bob Hoekstras teaching on grace that is sufficient. It is really Good he points out grace is more than just forgiveness but it is empowerment to live the life we are called as saints to live.
I do believe that it is christ in me that works and wills for His good pleasure. Not my own sufficiency.
I dealt with Rom 7 above so I wont reiterate.
However we must remember that though ii is the father that strives/works in us. Because of free choice we are told to take part in the work.
Luke 13:23-24
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
I dont think they will not enter because He was not able to save them, but because they did not choose.
You say that all christ has done in your life is help you to covet, lust and commit idolatry less, that is a scary statement. the scripture NEVER states that. this is what it states.
Matt 5:27-30
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Rom 13:13-14
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.
1 Thess 4:5
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you….
The scripture is clear TO repent means to change ones mind, if you still live in these sins you have not repented.
This type of preaching does not stop people from being transparent but stops people form what Paul was afraid of, using grace the wrong way.
Rom 6:15-16
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
I dont think you really believe that you are living in sin and going to heaven. I think sometimes we just use a false humility to help others feel better about there sin. But I am afraid that what we actually then do is put them back into bondage.
Sometimes I think we just need to reexamine things we say that may or may not line up with scripture and that is all I was doing. I am not offended and I am not trying to offend. Just trying to examine truth. God bless Love you Jake.
Jason, it is obvious from my comments that Christ has done more for me than help me covet less. I actually had the opportunity to have Bob Hokestra as one of my teachers down at CCBC and he taught on growing in grace. I feel loved, so I would like to pose this to you, two choices to help you prove/disprove your point, get a cup a joe or a beer with me or produce someone who is alive who does not sin and let me buy them a cup of coffee.
Jake
To hang your theology on mans ability is a defeated argument. I never said that man would not sin out of ignorance, part of mans fallen state, bummer we only see in a mirror dimly.
But I did say if I am living in sin that I know is sin, the problem is not that God has not pruned me yet. the problem is my heart, I have not made Him LORD.
As far as showing you a man that is not IN ie. living in sin to prove my point, I hope that is what you find in your church, a people so in love with God that there heart would break at the thought of sinning against the Lord.
Ps 119:9-11
How can a young man cleanse his way?
By taking heed according to Your word.
10 With my whole heart I have sought You;
Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments!
11 Your word I have hidden in my heart,
That I might not sin against You.
God bless Jake in due time God will cross our paths again. Continue in the meantime serving God and being set free by/through the Savior.
…so have you made Him Lord? Are you in sin? Are you weighed down by your inability? If you are there is hope.
I guess the main idea is…. we all sin, we all make mistakes. NO BODY IS PERFECT! We are not to live in sin.. yes… but we are born into sin and born again or not it is a bad habit of the flesh. I can try to be as perfect as I want, but I know there is always going to be some sort of blockade that will make my day of perfection fade away like a dream. I wish I could say that I or my husband don’t sin. But I would only be fooling ourselves by that thinking. It states clearly in Romans 3:10-12
10There is no one righteous, no not one. 11 There is no one that understands, no one that seeks God. 12 All have turned away they have together become worthless there is no one who does good, no not even one.
It also talks in Romans 7:25 about how we serve God with our minds but sin with the flesh. The Bible also states that he who says that he lives without sin is a liar. But thankfully in Hebrews 10:17 it says:
17 “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more”
Praise be to God for that. We have our times of backsliding as Christians! I know I have. But I am back on the right path now and living my life for Him the best that I can. I still sin, yes. But not like I used to and I know that God has cast those sins from me. Just as the Casting Crowns song states, “Just a far as the east is from the west”. I am so thankful for His mercy and Grace!
This has been a great Bible study ya’ll!
So Jason,
I must admit I am kind of confused. I never did get an answer on whether or not you struggle with sin or not? Do you?
I think that one of the ideas in all of what is going on here is to show that Christians are no better than anybody else. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.
How does culture see Christ? This is a relevant question seeing as we are to know the culture and know how to reach them for Christ. I might suggest that culture largely see’s Christians as a bunch of hypocrites. A bunch of people who seemingly claim to be without sin. Why is this how culture see’s the church?
May I suggest that it is because Christians have a problem with admitting their sin. We have a tendency to be stuck up and put ourselves up on a big box above everyone else saying I am better than you because I know Jesus and you don’t and you need to get your act together or you’re going to hell. Ask around about what people think of Christians in general. This may be the common response you get.
Now, we are trying to get away from this. I am not any better than the next person. Jake is not any better than the next person. Jason, you are not any better than the next person. We can never claim that we are.
You made a comment earlier about having the spirit of God which enables us to win the battle. Well there is a key word in that sentence. BATTLE. It is continual and we will always be battling between what Paul calls flesh and spirit.
Cool thing though. The battle has already been won. His name is Jesus and He is perfect. Christ is real and alive today. You can see Him right now. You can relate with Him. Get this, He was tempted in every way as you are so that we may have a High Priest in whom we relate to. That’s right. Jesus was tempted to sin, though he never sinned, and in that, HE won the BATTLE for me because I can’t!
That is my Savior. Jesus Christ! May the praise and glory be given to Him alone! Amen!
P.S. I would take Jake up on that offer with the beer or coffe. He is a great guy to hang out with and grow in Christ together with. Jason, You would be blessed to meet him.
Jason,
I am also a little confused on the fact as to who you are? Are you a member of Lighthouse? If not, what church are you a member of? Sometimes I read your comments and get a little confused. Just curiously asking….
Manide is right I too find this as being a great Bible Study
this was copied from my Email.
Hi Friends,
Instead of writing about the economy and the mess we have in the financial markets I wanted to talk a little about sin.
Recently I began to start paying a little more attention to conversations I hear while just living my life. I noticed that very seldom, if ever did I hear the word “Sin” being mentioned. I have travelled around the country and have spoken with many different Christians at all types of Churches and when they talk about sin, it is usually societal sins. Today if you hear groups praying, you will often hear prayers about abortion, marital rights gambling etc. When you think about this, it may sound a bit self righteous. You can read in Luke 18:13 about the Tax collector and the prayer he said, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner.” If you study Greek a little and the culture of Greek society in the day, you will learn the word sin meant to “miss the mark.” Another way to put is that sin could be considered a miscalculation when trying to achieve something. Now we all know the 10 commandments and if not, here they are:
1) You shall have no other gods before me
2) You shall not make for yourself an idol, nor worship any
3) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain
4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
5) Honor your father and your mother
6) You shall not commit murder
7) You shall not commit adultery
8) You shall not steal
9) You shall not bear false witness
10) You shall not covet
I remember receiving an email from someone who watched a video I made about sin and in that video; I stated we are all sinners. Well I got lambasted from this person saying how I may be a sinner but he does not sin any more and he is sanctified under Christ. He went on to call me several different names and ranted on about how I was a heretic. The whole time I read the email I wondered if he realized that he was sinning and breaking one of the 10 commandments as he typed his email. You see folks, if you believe that after you became a Christian, you stopped sinning, you are wrong. I sin! You sin! We all sin. Now I hope and pray that you do not commit murder or adultery. But the fact remains that I have felt resentment, succumbed to materialism, acted selfishly and others. When you really think about it, I am sure you will find the same to be true with your own life.
Let me give you an example. My wife, who I love and adore, has a habit of being a little late. She sometimes will forget about time and I might be forced to wait a few extra minutes. Just last week, we were at a Birthday Party for her Dad. We were walking out and I said I would go get the car. I got the car and I was waiting for her to come out. I waited. And waited. And then waited some more. I started to get angry with my wife and thoughts came into my mind. I got out of the car and went back inside. As soon as I opened the door my wife was there and she knew I was angry. She very calmly said, “This is not a big issue and there is no reason to be upset.” She might have even thrown in the word Pastor at the end. Of course she was right and immediately I realized the sin I was allowing to fester in my mind.
I remember driving one day and all of a sudden my wife said, “How fast are you going?” I won’t tell you how fast I was driving but it was wrong. I immediately slowed down to the speed limit and asked for forgiveness.
My point with all of the above statements is that I want you to know that yes I am a Pastor, yes I am the dean at a seminary school and yes I sin!
But what I do with my sins makes the difference in my life and I pray it will make a difference in yours. I seek forgiveness from the person or people I sinned against and I learn from my sin.
Recently I received an email from a member asking me that because he was divorced and got remarried, he was told that he was going to go to hell because he was committing adultery and living in sin, and he wanted to know if this was true and if he should give up going to Church because it was too late for him. Imagine Christians telling someone that they were going to Hell because they sinned! I replied to this person saying that your Christian friend who told you this does not understand the Bible. Is divorce a sin? Yes. Can someone who is divorced and remarried be forgiven by God? YES! God not only forgives us of our sin, he FORGETS IT!
Who are we to hold a sin against someone when God almighty forgives and forgets our sins?
Today I want you to realize that yes you do make mistakes but when you confess your mistakes or your shortcomings or sin to God, you are not only forgiving but he forgets it. Learn from your mistake and move on!
Yours in Christ,
Pastor Bob Paulson
Mandie you qouted Rom 2
If this is speaking about your current christian state of life then you are not in a current state of christian life or walk. It is obvious that Romans 2 is not talking about your current state in Christ it is speaking of our past state before Christ.
Romans 7 saying that we serve sin with our flesh is not the current christian state read Romans 6. In fact Rom. 8 the next step after Rom. 7 says if we continue in that state of mind, we cannot be subject to the Law of God and we are not born again.
No I dont Go to lighthouse I use to. The church I am currently going to is in Jerome, the denomination doesn’t matter, 1 Cor. 1.
God bless Mandie
And I encourage you to study Rom. 2 and really examine if that is speaking about a christian or before christ. same with Rom. 7 I dont think the goal of the christian should be to serve the law of God with our mind yet serve sin in the flesh.
Pastor Bob
I am sorry for the way this man acted against you. But what may be important is not how he said but what he said. From Gods persepective and the scripture I believe the man was right we are not called sinners but saints.
The Pharisee and the tax collector are a good analogy of how mankind should come to Christ. I wish more of the story would have been told. For instance if he was justified did he go back to his sin, or was this an act of repentance. I believe the latter must be correct in order to stay in line with scripture.
John 5:14
14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
John 8:11
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
According to what you said about making”mistakes” or sins, we need to confess and move on, this is very true, but confessing and moving on is not continuing in them.that alone is my point.
Not to mention your term concerning sinning to be missing the mark is correct. However in Leviticus 4 we also realize that there are two types of sin, unintentional and intentional, scripture does make it clear that intentional sin, old testament WAS unforgivable.
Num 15:27-31
27 ‘And if a person sins unintentionally, then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering. 28 So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the Lord, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.
Law Concerning Presumptuous Sin
30 ‘But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”
This does not mean that Jesus cannot forgive, under the new covenant. But I do believe that God sees a difference and when we see those list in the NT about anyone committing these sins shall not enter the kingdom, i believe we see gross intentional sin. That to a believer should become obviously rejected and repented from, like you said moving on, NOT moving in. If it was expected of none born again Old Testament saints should anything less be required of us, born of the spirit and empowered by God.
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Regarding your friend I too believe in Gods forgivness as long as it is intitiaited by repentance. And according to the scripture the thing to recommend to him, to be reconciled to his wife if neither of them have already moved on in another relationship.
1 Cor 7:10-11
10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
God bless brother Bob,
2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Mandie my first sentence to you seemed really rude when I read it after I sent it. So I apologize I did not mean it to come off as me judging your walk with the Lord. I was speaking hypothetically.
Again really sorry God bless sister.
Jake funny but still not scripture. lol.
Micheal I will correct you because you are wrong. To say that we are not better than anybody else is to say that Christ has had no effect on our current lifestyle. Jesus commands us to be different from the world as it relates to holiness and my idea of a better person is deffinitely holiness instead of sin.
Matt 5:20
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
1 Cor 9:24-27
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Concerning your question whether or not I sin, I guess that to answer your question you are hoping I would either disprove my argument or sound prideful which is sin. So I will not entertain your question for the sake of the argument.Becaause again my argument is not based upon personal experience but scripture whcih I thnk we as believers need to come back to. One thing I will tell you however is this.
Phil 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Again Paul encourages us to push on and leave the former life behind NOT live in it less.
Micheal again not a single scripture to back up any of your points. Could it be they are not found in scripture. I dont say this to mock but to encourage. To create a christianity that catters to the culture is unbibilical, friendshiip with the world is emnity wtih God.
Can it actually be that the problem isn’t the message, but the christian lives. Look at histroy holiness and holy lives are what led people to the Lord,and brought revival not compromise and sinful lifestyles being portrayed on the streets as a coomon christian life. This day was actually warned of by Paul would actually be the character of the church that denies the power.
2 Tim 3:1-5
But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but DENYING its power. And from such people turn away!
Hypocrisy is acting like something you are not. If you claim to be a follower of Christ and live in sin, your right you are a hypocrite. John said it pretty plain.
1 John 2:3-6
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
If you follow christ and live a repentant life and pursue and preach righteousness, you are not a hypocrite but a proclaimer of the gospel.
SCRIPTURE. SCRIPTURE, SCRIPTURE Lets get back to it. And learn how to exegete(pulling out of the scripture the meaning) and stop eisogeting(putting into the scripture the meaning).Comparing scripture with scripture and not men.
God bless brother. and I love you guys even though I may be a thorn in the flesh.
P.S I know Jake, he is a good guy. I will meet with Him, at the right time.
sorry micheal bad typos this will be a hard read for you. My Bad, Guess I am not perfect. I guess I answered your question.lol
i often find that when someone says they are not trying to be rude, they often end up being just that.
my questions or statements are….
how many of our sins were forgiven on the cross? ALL… is there a distiction between our past sin before we profess our sin, and our sin after we accept the lord? im saying this retorically, when christ died on the cross we were not born yet, soooooo all of our sins that are forgiven are future sins… this isnt a ticket to sin… but that is what grace is… levitical law was fulfilled with the grace of the cross…. i sin daily, i learn daily that i sin…. and if it takes hours, days, years to overcome that sin, grace is there to help me through it….
the other thing…. mans opinions on sin is the main issue…. by jake saying he would like to have coffee or a beer to talk issues over, is in and of itself a shocker to some christians…. proclaiming “sinner…they have no merit in ministry and worthiness”… i disagree wholeheartedly (with that quote i just wrote), but that to is MY opnion, my standard of sin (or lack there of)…and for me to point fingers and say i have it all taken care of is ludicrious…
i have learned more as my walk is coming on 15 years, about sin being black and white in the bible but how people handle it being very very gray… it is not as simple to handle as black and white… a true heart for someone causes you to have compassion , to understand and want to help that person, to walk with them, and let them go into their freedom when sin is overcome…. but also to follow through when that brother or sister may fall into it again…
another rhetorical question…would you ever cast out your son or daughter to the street if they did drugs, then you earnestly helped them to recover and set it aside… then they are in a vehicle accident and become addicted to the painkillers, because of their history with drugs…. would you cast them aside because they are a drug user again? no… you wouldnt… that is the gray area i am talking about…. life isnt simple, and the devil is whiley to trip us up….
so in conclusion jason i feel you are saying you dont sin… am i wrong? if so i agree with leita, that is pride and that is a sin. and it may take days, weeks, years, to overcome that… you are a saint or an aint… to quote a very great pastor… and that sainthood is established by accepting lord, and WORKING OUT YOUR SALVATION!… that scripture poses that it is a work in progress, not an instantaniuos change… we also wouldnt need the holy spirit if we never sinned, why would we? to have an equal friend at our side? no…. he (the holy spirit) is our teacher and correcter, given to us by god to get us through this fallen world!
heidi
We ALL still sin, because we are ALL still human. True, the Bible says we can not serve two masters, we must serve the Lord, or we serve sin. As Christians, we serve the Lord, but that doesn’t make us perfect. We will all still sin, whether Jason wants to admit to it or not.
Jesus has already forgiven us of those sins…does it make it okay to sin? NO, but it’s inevitable. God doesn’t look at the things we do as much as He looks at our hearts.
Having said that, even as a Christian who struggles with sin and temptation, I am NOT living in sin, because I’m not a slave to sin. I am a Christian who sometimes makes the wrong decisions. Jason, are you telling me that you never sin? I know you wouldn’t answer this question before, so don’t worry about it…but think about it. How could you be the only person in the world who doesn’t sin?
Anyway, I was going to write some more, but ran out of time. I’m off to my Wednesday night Bible study. Take care everyone!
Jason,
Thank you for the apology. I was a little offended by your statement when I read it. As a pastor’s wife, my walk with God is stronger now than ever before. I have learned and retained so much more than i ever have in my life. I am glad to hear that you are still in a church. God bless you my brother in Christ. Maybe we will meet someday. Until that day….
Good discussion people. It centers around an issue that has been wrestled with for centuries. As I see it, Jason is arguing for the necessary fruit of a changed life. Most everyone else is arguing for the presence of sin (sin nature/old man) in the life of a Christian and the need to be honest about it. These are important issues to work through.
I do agree with Jason to the extent that sometimes Christians use the ‘I’m a sinner saved by grace’ mantra to perpetuate a lazy spiritual lifestyle. I disagree with Jason to the extent that he seems to argue for the necessity of a victorious Christian life (the absence of struggle with sin) in order to prove/demonstrate true salvation experience. The Scriptures are replete with teaching on the Christian’s struggle against sin/flesh. If we deny this, we’re in danger of becoming hypocritical and judgmental. The Apostle John said, ‘If WE say that WE have no sin, WE deceive OURSELVES and the truth is not in US.’ Obviously John was admitting to having sin-as do we all. He didn’t say he lived in it or made a practice of it, but he had it.
The Apostle Paul wrote, ‘The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit and against the flesh constantly so that you are not free to do what you want.’ It’s constant and continual. He goes on to say that the way to overcome sin and the flesh is to daily ‘walk in the Spirit’, but I would argue that that requires an honest admission of sin being ever present in the Christian’s life.
Finally, Jason, you rebutted someone for quoting 1 Timothy 1:15 ‘This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.’ Please note that Paul didn’t say ‘was the chief’. Interestingly, ‘am’ is in the present tense in the Greek. I am certain Paul was fully aware of his new identity in Christ, but apparently, he was at the same time aware of his (old) sin nature.
Until He comes,
Greg
I think what Jason is actually trying to say is that when we become born again we should not sin any more. This is when we repent of a sin and ask God to forgive us we should learn from that sin and not do It again. How ever we do commit sin unintentionally. It’s not like any of us wake up in the morning and think what sins can or will I commit today. If we think about what we are going to do and think of it as a sin or not then we would all make the right choice not to sin. How ever we don’t always think about everything we do or say and sometimes in that we commit sins that we (at the time did not consider as Sin) A simple and very common sin is when we see something we realy like at someone’s house we are like ” that is really nice where did you get it.” now that can be the same as coveting. Now none of us would go as far as wanting to take it or anything like that just that we want to get one like it. this is the differance between willfuly sinning ( coveting that item ) and unintentional sin (covet what someone else has) I could go on all night about this subject but I hope my illistration helps all understand why we can say we sin. but Jason is right about us not being sinner’s any longer for Jesus is in us and therefore we can no longer be sinners, we are born again Believers
Many of Gods chosen still sinned while following God, Abraham, Jacob and David to name a few. David ( A man after God’s own heart and God’s favorite was one of the worst when it came to sin. He covetted his neighbor’s wife, commited Adultry with her getting her pregnant and then even had her husband killed, and then took her as his wife. If God would love and forgive David how much more would he love and forgive us. But we should still strive not to sin. When we do sin we need to seek God’s forgiveness and learn not to do that sin again.
Pastor Wayne
Lets just start showing up…. I will be at Moxie Tuscany…. I would love to say 7am… but I always get so much FLACK!!!!… so I’ll say 8:30. Not this Sat, but next… and then the next, and maybe the next, and the one after that….
OOps.. sorry,my little light is dim.. it’s way early. Thought I was onthe other blog.. Please forgive my last comment
Scripture Scripture Scripture
Romans 9:30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I thank God that my salvation is based on His work, not mine. So now I can focus on worshipping, glorifying God, and not get caught up so much in whether or not I sin.
Interesting that the writer of Hebrews talks about being chastised as sons…
Hebrews 12:3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
So then, prior to salvation, I am judged unto condemnation for my sins, but having recieved Jesus Christ as my Savior I am free from the bondage, and the eternal penalty of sin. If I do sin, I am chastised, as a son, to bring me out of sin. Sin always brings death. Death to me, dealth to relationships, death to my family and the ones who love me, death to fellowship. The more I participate, the more death.
God declares Lot righteous, 2 Peter 2. Doesn’t mean that he didn’t experience sin in his flesh, it means GOD made him righteous, just like God, through Jesus Christ made me righteous… and holy, seated in Heaven.
So then my salvation is not based on what I do, but what I believe. I will never be good enough in my flesh to fulfill the perfect righteousness of God. That’s why Jesus died on the cross.
Galatians 3 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
I had a great pastor one time, when battling a habitual sin as a believer, tell me to stop focusing on the sin and focus on Jesus. Fill my life with Godly things, worship, praise and service, and I wouldn’t have room for the sin.
Heidi
Everything you stated had no scriptural backing. I may be misunderstanding, but it seems to me you misunderstood me in two ways.
First it seems that you think that not living in sin is akin to judgeing people and not being accepting of peoples weaknesses or struggles. I believe quiote the opposite, I think it gives greater compassion, after all to not have that is sinful. It also gives hope, freedom instead of baondage.
You also stated that we need the Holy Spirit because we sin. I agree, i Believe the only way we can be free from sin is through the Holy Spirit, and walking in the Spirit.
Gal 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Also concerning the forgivness of Christ, it is true that He forgives us of all sin, if we fulfill the part that is commanded by the scriptures you proclaim for this doctrine that we both believe and this is what they say.
1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Acts 5:31
31 Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
See the key it is confession and repentance. Again this has been my point all along.
Also I still disagree mans oppinion is never the ultimate authority.
Prov 14:12
12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.
DJ that is not very nice.
Jennifer I think you hit the nail on the head.
You said exactly what I have been stating all along. We all struggle but we do not live in sin the scripture is clear. Not because of our own efforts but because of the Holy Spirit within us that has set us free.
This person that both me and Jennifer have just described is not the definition scripturally of a sinner but a saint. Praise God.
Again look through all my blogs I NEVER claimed that I have not nor will be gauranteed never to sin, that would be too much responsibility upon me, I rely daily upon the Spirit of God to remain free, as soon as I step out walking in the Spirit, it will lead inevitably into sin, but this is not necessary.
What I did state was that sinners, ie those living in sin must repent. and that as Christians we must not live in sin. Reread check it out it is all there.
The only case in which I warned was when Jake stated that he commits adultery(lust) less now than before. That is not freedom nor repentance, prove me wrong in that.
Greg
Your exactly right on the issue. Accept that I dont think we are arguing about the struggle which takes place in the heart and the mind.
But the actual action of committing sin. When Paul stated in 1 Tim 15 concerning the presence of sin in his life it was proven by his pre christ ACTIONS, and as you stated he saw within himself the ability if left unchecked to fall back into sin. As we all should.
All through my blogs I have pointed out scripture that speaks of action not internal battle. Reread all of my qoutes.
I like what you said concerning spiritual laziness that is the argument, an excuse for acting out in sin is not found, in the scripture.
But I think what I have seen by statements such as I sin, and I lust less now, is not the battle but the actual commission of sin.
I do believe we should have victory over that. But over the struggle(internal) never. You stated that the scripture is obvious about that which I agree.
James 1:14-15
4 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
Notive the desire is not sin, we all have the flesh which desires sin. However this is the point in which the battle is going on. However if the desire is allowed to be left unchecked it will give birth to sin. this does not have to be the believers lot in life.
1 Cor 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
That is my encouragement to the body(my brothers and sisters) of lighthouse.
Pastor Wayne
You said it exactly right. I think you went a little far with the Old Testament examples. after all they had not the born again experience we have. But everything else is exactly what I was saying.
Thanks brother, and keep up the good fight.
Linn
Great job in qouting the scriptures, however we are not talking about positional righteousness or jutification.
Rom 9 The issue Isreael proclaiming salvation by works, the truth salvation is by faith. I have no problem with that never did. In fact I qouted Rom 6 for my argument which stated that we are free from sin because of what you qouted here in Rom 9.
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Eph. 2:8-9 The issue again was not how to become righteous which is of course by faith, but it was the works that he created us for, which I do not believe are only ministry but lifestyle, Which I have proclaimed over and over that we are called to be different from the world and to not live in sin, but to overcome it and live in holiness.
Eph 4:17-24
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer WALK AS THE REST OF THE GENTILES(THE UNSAVED WORLD) WALK, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20 But YOU HAVE NOT SO LEARNED IN Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your FORMER conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HOLINESS.
You next stated”So now I can focus on worshipping, glorifying God, and not get caught up so much in whether or not I sin”
Is this what the scripture says.
1 Cor 9:27
27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 DO YOU NOT KNOW that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such WERE some of you.But you were washed, but you were sanctifiED(PRACTICE), but you were justified(POSTIONAL) in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Next you qoute Hebrews this is a good quote.
Hebrews does speak about what God does when there is sin in the believers life, He disciplines them.
Let me ask you a question, if God believers that we can not be free from that sin, why does He discipline. You said why, because he expects us to repent, as you said to bring us out of sin.
That was my point that we should repent, not live in sin that God convicts us of and which is obviously condemned in scripture.
Laslty You quoted Galatians, which sepaks about the impossibility of being justified or gain or even keep salvation in the flesh.
This is not saying that we cannot present our members arms legs as instruments of righteousness instead of to sin.
Rom 6:12-14
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
What Paul was saying in Galatians is the same as what he said here that the flesh is unable to fulfill the law. But the spirtit in us given by faith can and will set us free from the flesh. He states it is Galatians 5:16.
I never stated that I could in my own flesh be righteous. I know that in my flesh dwells no good thing. and therefore if I rely upon the flesh I will practice sin because the flesh is bound to sin its works are evident.
Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who PRACTICE such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.
That last statement you had was true because to overcome the flesh you must walk IN the Spirit and then the fruit, ie. The natural outcome will be a holy life described by the fruit of love the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.
Hope that clears up what I was and was not saying.
again thanks for the scripture, after all by using it is where we gain maturity, not from philosopjhical arguments based upon mans experiences.
Heb 5:14
4 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by REASON OF USE have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Jason,
I cannot totally speak for Jake, but I am not sure that he was admitting that he does those things but merely using them as examples. Maybe I was misunderstanding your blogs this whole time. The thought in my head was that your were trying to say that we never sin as born again believers and we trying to argue the fact that no one is perfect. When my husband (Pastor Wayne) had me read his post and we talked a little more, I think I understood more where you were coming from. Yes, those LIVING IN SIN must repent. But we also must repent daily ourselves.
God Bless
jason,
your quote:”Everything you stated had no scriptural backing. I may be misunderstanding, but it seems to me you misunderstood me in two ways.”
i take umberance with….
1. you quoted scripture that backed me up…Gal 5:16….
2. my statement on working out our salvation? here is the scripture: Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
3. another statement i made….grace being fulfilled at the cross… wasnt this done? levitical law was put aside by the fact that jesus was the ultimate sacrifice and then he stated as our commandments to love god and love our neighbor as ourself… is this not scriptural?
so saying that everything i stated wasnt scripture is wrong….
if you are a believer we need to be of one accord… another scripturally based statement…
so i say….. i didnt personally say you were off, i even asked you a question to clarify… i was stating an opnion and expereince that pertained to the blog and the comments…so i end with….we will agree to disagree.
Okay Jason, I think I’m understanding you a bit better now. Although I do have one comment. You said that you weren’t talking about struggling with temptation, but the actual sin itself. Then you made this comment:
“The only case in which I warned was when Jake stated that he commits adultery(lust) less now than before. That is not freedom nor repentance, prove me wrong in that.”
I don’t know for sure, because I don’t know Jake, but I’m guessing he was talking about lust more as a temptation than a physical act. Which can be a sin if we dwell on those thoughts, which Christ himself called adultery.
My question is this: How is this any different than what you stated earlier? You said that it’s a sin when we “act” on our temptations. If someone battles with lust (mental adultery) is this a sin if they don’t physically act on their desires? I believe it is…which makes it all the more clear how very much we need Christ.
Or I could be wrong and Jake wasn’t talking about that at all…again, I don’t know him outside this blog…
Jennifer
Your right about what your saying. Lust is dwelling and allowing our mind to wonder into fantasy.
Temptation is the beginning of this action which can a should be stopped, is all I am saying.
2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
Heidi
I did not mean to say everything you said was without scripture. Only the parts that were. Thanks and sorry if I offended you, not my intent. Just thought this was a neat subject to make aware.
No I dont believfe the Law was put aside, unless you mean as a tool for salvation. But to say that it is no longer useful or not a goal of the believer to be conformed into, then I do disagree. Christ fulfilled the Law as you stated, he kept the Law in all points. and we are being conformed into His image and likeness. Which is the Law. Matthew 5 Jesus raised the standard of obedience. The scripture you quoted to love god and our neighbors is the fulfillment of the law.
We cannot say that the Law is to be set aside.
Rom 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Rom 8:6-8
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Jesus even stated this as one of the proofs of false conversion.
Matt 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me,’Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS!’
sorry if I misunderstood you, there was alot of blogs to respond to perhaps I should have taken more time, to answer you. again I have proven I am not perfect. lol
Cool Mandie thanks for the confirmation. This has been a great study to exercise my faith and have a better understanding of scripture.
Hi this is jason I just wanted to clarify on the post I posted for Heidi. I qouted Matt 7.
It is not that I am saying the fact that they were lawless is the only reason they were not saved. But of course it was because they did not know Him, but the proof of that lack of relationship was a lawless lifestyle.
again my point was not law equals salvation. But salvation leads to obedience, a statement I am sure we all believe.
jason you were the one who put “everything” so i take your apology, nd move on… i do not think the commandments are null and void… didnt say that… just that if we live by the law and only the law we are making jesus out to be a liar…. which im not saying you said that, im just clarifying they have to go hand in hand…. and we live in a new testament time, and jesus is who we look to by his words, his actions, and his grace.
again we are arguing something that doesnt need be… and if im in an argument i want it to be a worthy fight! and have eternal value!
jesus is the reason,
heidi
Heidi
Very true, however unless one argues there points we may never know what value the argument may have.
Proverbs 27:17
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
I did not mean for you to join in on the discussion if it was not of value to you. It was just a concern that I had.
And I thank all for there comments I learned alot and am encouraged.
God bless and good bye.
All with out answering I or Greg’s questions.
My comment above was not well written, let me try again.
Jason, you are leaving the discussion without answering my yes or no question: Do you sin?
Also I did not see your response to Greg’s comments “1 Timothy 1:15 ‘This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.’ Please note that Paul didn’t say ‘was the chief’. Interestingly, ‘am’ is in the present tense in the Greek. I am certain Paul was fully aware of his new identity in Christ, but apparently, he was at the same time aware of his (old) sin nature.”
Jason, you seem like a very thorough person, so I would like to afford you an opportunity to tie up these loose ends. I would like to thank you in advance for addressing these as they will bring much clarity to this discussion.
Hey Jake good to hear from you again,
I did address Gregs comment of 1 Tim 1:15.
What I had explained perhaps I did not make clear enough.
I never stated that the sinful nature of mankind miraculously disappeared at conversion. We still are in these bodies, however we are no longer under the power of its control, as I also explained and even you ,mentioned concerning Rom 6.
Lets look at the whole text. and sort out the present and aorist tenses to ascertain Pauls statement better. I will place my comments within the text capitalized.
1 Tim 1:12-17
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,PAUL HERE STATES THE SUBJECT, WHICH IS THE ENABLEMENT OF CHRIST BECAUSE HE WAS COUNTED FAITHFUL, WHICH WE KNOW IS THE ONLY REQUIREMENT OF A STEWARD 1 COR.4:2 13 although SPEAKS OF THE ENABLKEMENT THAT CHRIST GAVE IN SPITE OF HIS OWN RESOURCES OR LACK THEREFORE AND EVEN HIS NATURL PROPENSITY TOWARD SIN I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.HE STATES HERE THAT HE RECIEVED THE MERCY BECAUSE HE DID IT IN UNBELIEF WHICH IS INTERESTING ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU READ MY COMMENT ABOVE CONCERNING INTENTIONALSIN VERSUS UNINTENTIONAL SIN 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.AGAIN PAUL STATING THE FACT THATIT IS ALL ABOUT CHRIST BECAUSE HE ON HIS OWN IS UNWORTHY AND IGNORANT 15 THEREFORE HERE IS THE CONCLUSION CONCERNING HIS CHARACTER APART FROM CHRIST This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy,NOTICE AGAIN THIS IS NOT BASED UPON HIS CURRENT ACTIONS BUT UPON HIS EXAMINATION OF THE ABILITIES OF HIS FLESH APART FROM CHRIST, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.WHAT AGAIN IS THE LOGSUFFERING BEING SHONE, PAULS PRESENT SINFUL SELF OR WHAT CHRIST HAD BROUGHT HIM OUT OF, OF COURSE IT WOULD BE THE LATER 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.HE ENDS BY SHOWING THAT THE GLORY BELONGS TO GOD.
Hopefully this answers your question sufficiently. again my point concerning this text is it is not saying that in our current position is christ we are expected to be found living in sin. Paul is not stating that he is currently lving in a sinful state but that apart from christ his nature is thoroughly corrupt.
I think we both must agree on this, the question is do you have the power to overcome sin in your life, and if yes than how much, all or some.
I believe I have shown my belief on the issue, and I feel that you have also shared yours, i just disagree.
I dont believe at this point you have shown me any lose ends. I think that the scripture that I have shared concerning christian victory over sin and the condemnation of sinful practice would leave the burden of proof on your side.
At this point I will answer your question concerning sin. We need to understand teh question.
Am I currently living in unrepentan knwledgable sin, no. But does that mean that at some point God will not point out something that I was unaware of, no, that is why we must remain humble and ask like David to have our hearts searched. But will I repent when that happens yes. This was the same statement that Paul made and I believe that we as Christians should be able to make as well.
1 Cor 4:3-5
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
God bless Jake.
Jason,
Thank you for the reply, I just have one more question for you if you would allow me: Yes or No, have you, since you became a Christ follower, knowingly and willfully committed a sin?
Thank you,
yes and unfortunately it came out of ignorance not knowing these things that I have shared here. Had I only had Gods word shared to me more faithfully I could have avoided many issues in my life that have left scars and pains.
I am not saying that God has taken away my ability to sin wilffully against Him. And I am not saying that if I do I will automatically be doomed to Hell.
What I am saying is that my heart has been changed, Not by my own works but by His work in me, which was done by the washing and regenreating power of the word through His blood.
Faith is a powerful thing and if we do not put our faith in the correct teachings of the word we can easily become ensnared again by the enemy and become captive to do His will.
Jake it is not my desire to condemn anyone in sin, only to reiterate the power and freedom that Chist has given us. In hopes that people are set free through there faith in what His death has done for us and in us.
Sorry pressed worng button again.
The thing about sin is if we confess it we will be cleansed from it. God cleanses sin from believers lives, not excuses. And revival comes from repentance and purity it is Gods will for us.
1 Thess 4:3-8
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. 7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.
Hope that answers your question
Don’t you just hate it when you commit a sin shortly after you hear an inspiring sermon? During the sermon, you feel so good you think you are never going to do anything wrong again — but alas, we are only human so we do something stupid.
Anyway, aren’t most sins committed knowingly and willfully? I think we are judged by the law we know, so if we do something that we didn’t know was a sin, I don’t think we will be held accountable for it.
However, I don’t think we can be saved in ignorance. It is up to us to learn the gospel of Jesus Christ.
As well, sometimes we might sin without us realizing it. For instance, some people lose their temper very quickly and offend others so quickly that they might say things they didn’t even realize they were saying! Then the regret sets in …
Oh well, as long as we keep doing our best to follow Jesus. Good thing for repentance and the atonement of our Lord and Savior.
“yes and unfortunately it came out of ignorance not knowing these things that I have shared here. Had I only had Gods word shared to me more faithfully I could have avoided many issues in my life that have left scars and pains”
Jason,
Now that you know these things; have you knowingly and willfully committed a sin?
Thanks,
Jake
Not yet, in fact I have been set free from sins that I have been so called struggling with for years.
As I said before faith is a powerful thing and if we would just put faith in Gods revealsed word instead of mans experience than I believe we would tap into something more powerful than our flesh.
Jake what concerns we is that you are more concerned with my personal experince than the word. Maybe I misunderstand you. But I have explained my thoughts on the word and interpreted scripture for you. And it seems all you are concerned about is disproving my lifestyle.
Explain these,
Num 15:30-31
30 ‘But the person who does anything PRESUMPTIOUSLY, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.’”
The word presumptiously is actually two Hebrew words, YAAD which means mans hand signifying his will, and RAMAH which means to cast down, deal treatcherousl with. Pointing to mans willful disobedience to Gods revealed law.
Concerning unintentional sin the scripture is clear.
Num 15:27-29
27 ‘And if a person sins unintentionally, then he shall bring a female goat in its first year as a sin offering. 28 So the priest shall make atonement for the person who sins unintentionally, when he sins unintentionally before the Lord, to make atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. 29 You shall have one law for him who sins unintentionally, for him who is native-born among the children of Israel and for the stranger who dwells among them.
Now consider us being born again believers do you think that we as born again believers have the right to continue in sin which is presumptious, and feel free from condemnation, Paul would say no way.
Heb 12:14-17
14 Pursue peace with all people, and HOLINESS, WITHOUT WHICH no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone FALL SHORT of the GRACE of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
Rom 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Shall we CONTINUE IN SIN that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who DIED TO SIN LIVE any longer in it?
Rom 6:15-19
15 What then? SHALL WE SIN BECAUSE WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you WERE slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been SET FREE FROM SIN, you became slaves of righteousness.
Now lets look at your comments concerning sin.
wish I could hold a sign that said “I used to covet” “I used to lust” “I used to have a tendency to bow to false Idols” I used to be proud” but as I look at my life, sadly this is not the reality and so as the progressive narrative said on the day of the protest, “who will save me? who will change me?” Jesus, and because of Jesus, I can say “I covet less”
So do you think if you were n the Corinthians church you would be any different than th is man.
1 Cor 5:9-11
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner — not even to eat with such a person.
Or do you think that because it is just internal lust that you would be ok. And do you think that because your willing to parade in the church and have the church be accepting of it that it makes it ok. What would Paul say to suich a sin glorifying church,
1 Cor 5:6-8
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
But I guess if you claim all, because of inability to put to death the deeds of the body are in sin, than church discipline for sin is negated.
P.S If I do in the future commit any willful sin, because of Christ I believe I will be forgiven if I repent and not allow myself to become again entagled and in bondage to it. But I pray it will never again become my practice.
Jason,
You haven’t committed a willful sin? Is that possible?
I don’t think that is possible. How many times a day does a person think something there not supposed to, feel emotions that aren’t healthy, be pushy, be prideful, look at something or someone and judge? No one is sinless, but Jesus Christ. How can you stop thoughts that are a sin, like anger, or jugding, or envy?
Jason,
If I have offended you for asking you to answer my question clearly then do as Matthew 18 instructs you to. You have painted a very interesting picture of me an my theology throughout your comments, I don’t feel the need to defend myself from these slanders and erroneous exaggerations of my supposed theology. My life and theology are no secret to those who know me, I would invite you to ask the people at LCF what I believe and promote, you are invited to ask my neighbors and my boss what my priorities are. You are welcome to ask my friends what I strive for and you are welcome to ask my family in what regard do I hold God’s word. You on the other hand can remain this faceless internet sinless enigma. I will not let you put a burden on people that you are not able to bear yourself, that unless they are not living years of their lives without sinning, they are second class believers. Maybe I have grossly misunderstood you, as you have me. I know a great way to understand each other more clearly.
Jason
I was only using the Old testiment Men as examples of Godly Men who still sinned and most of them actually heard God’s voice. We don’t have that now days. We walk by faith, and are led by the Holly Spirit. Any way I have another email that touches on our blog this was from Billy Graham
What If I Don’t Have Any Sins to Confess?
By Billy Graham, Tribune Media Services
Q: I know we’re supposed to confess our sins whenever we pray, but sometimes I can’t think of anything to confess. I’m not trying to be proud, but I honestly try to do what is right. What am I missing? — Mrs. N.G.
A: When we come to Christ, He takes away all our sins. But sin is like a virus that still resides within us, and we all still sin — even if we aren’t aware of it. The Bible says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).
The first step is to realize that sin isn’t just something we do (like lying, stealing or committing immorality). It also involves our inner motives and thoughts — things like selfishness, impure thoughts, jealousy and envy. And those are just as serious as our outward sins — in fact more so, because they cause our outward actions. Jesus warned, “From within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery” (Mark 7:21).
But we sin not only by what we do, but by what we fail to do. Have you ignored someone who needs a kind word or some practical help? Have you forgotten to pray for people who need your prayers? God is just as concerned about the good things we fail to do, as He is about the things we shouldn’t do.
The psalmist prayed, “Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me” (Psalm 139:23-24). Make that your prayer — and then thank Him for His forgiveness in Christ.
As I said this was Quoted from Billy Graham
If I understand what Billy Graham is saying properly we can not only sin by doing things we no are wrong but by also not doing thing we no we should do. Do we all take the time to help everyone in need that we can? Do any of avoid that homeless man who could use that spare change jingling in our pockets. Do we all give our 10% in tithes. As you should see, We are all subject to sin. The Holy Spirit will guilde us, but we must know and fallow His leading.
God Bless. Pastor Wayne
i for one know jake as friend, and i also worked along side him, i also think of him as family…. so my relationship with jake is far from shallow… he may not want to defend himself, but choose to now…
he and i have had many many talks in the past on sin, and often joked about our sin nature being so “always there” but knowing that we have a savior who is quick to forgive and love… in fact jake made me laugh one day that he has the capability to be “carnality on a stick” if not for jesus and his work within him… i respect a man, a woman, a human, that can admit he is flawed, and even respect one more who can admit they need a savior to lift them up and cause them freedom without pride…
jake has the biggest heart, for sooooo many people… kids and adults alike… he brought out so much in my teenager in youth group that i still, to this day, look at her and know his touch through christ is still there… jake also was there for my husband in a very very dark time in his life… even jake being the younger in the lord, ministered to my husband in a real, loving, and encouraging way, that again i thank the lord for his depth in his knowledge, and compassion, to care enough to see my husband make it through that time…. and me personally, what can i say, he was hilarious, he was real, and he was humble, as a boss…. i am thankful and have a great need to reveal my loyalty to his cause, and his person.
p.s. loni, i love you and edie too!
heidi
Jennifer it is most deffinitly possible but is it mandatory? that I think is the important question.
Lynn, You stated this,How can you stop thoughts that are a sin, like anger, or jugding, or envy?
I think the answer is a resounding yes and amen thanks be to God
2 Cor 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing EVERY THOUGHT into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
I find it interesting that a couple weeks ago at TFRC Pastor Chuck preached about bridging gaps (including those of our LDS friends/neighbors) by discussing with them the beliefs we have in common. Seems like catching flies with sugar as opposed to LCF’s vinegar approach. I’m actually a member of a local non-denominational church and was at TFRC with a friend that day but found that approach rather insightful and much more Christ-like. Blessings.
Jake
Brother I am not slandering you nor am I trying to question your character, but only your theology.
I have heard many other Calvary Pastors say if I am wrong, and if what I say is not found in scripture show me, because I am not beyond mistake.
I know your not a Pastor but If a Pastor says that than I dont think the congregation should feel any different concerning there words.
I was only judging what you were saying from the scripture, I never called you a name nor have I created second class christians as you claim.
In fact the scripture doesnt even call them christians if they continue in sin.
1 John 1:6-7
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Also you continue to blast me for saying that I am sinless read my blogs I have never stated that. I simply said that I am not living in sin. And then I qouted the scriptures that say that it is possible.
Why do you feel I am attacking you? You asked me first concerning my personal lifestyle and then mocked me by saying that I should invite a sinless person to have coffee with you, again something I never claimed.
I dont think that this is your character, but your words do express your doctrine and I believe you are wrong and I have shown scripture to which you NEVER commented on only continued to ask me about my personal life. If you have scripture to back up your view please share it.
Throughout this blog I have answered scripture and I have shared scripture. This is all I wanted to do. If I am wrong show me, dont take offense this is not a popularity contest. This is, I was supposing a search for the truth.
Again Jake I love you and have nothing against you. You have not sinned against me in any way, I will not take offense to your comments, and if I have sinned against you I apologize that was not my intent. I was only trying to reason with you and compare words with scripture. I beleive this is our christian duty.
2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God bless Jake I hope if we meet it will be a friendly meeting between brothers that disagree.
So James, are you saying that Jesus Christ was all ’sugar’ and no ‘vinegar’?
Hey Wane good stuff again. I hope that people will notice that 1 John 1:8 does not say that if we say that we are not sinning that we lie and do not practice the truth.
But what it does say and John is very clear because he would contradict himself if he was saying that it was impossible to not be sinning.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you MAY not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Having the capacity of sin and actually sinning are two different things which John points out much like we say concerning having the sinful nature, sin, yet not allowing it to lead us into sinful lifestyles.
The way John does this is by using the singular word for sin and turning it from a verb into a noun, to which in the rest of the cases including chapter 2,it is used as a verb.
Also the word that is translated decieve ourselves is actually a word that means to wander.
Because again he is speaking about walking in the light instead of the darkness therefore of we say that sin is not something we have then we have wandered out of the light.
To say that we have no possibility to sin claims that we need not walk in the light, which cleanses us from the verb or action of committing sin.
Concerning whatBilly Graham said about maybe not helping this or that person. I believe because of scripturethat we only sin if God says to and we dont. If we think that we are personally responsible for every good deed then we condemn ourselves.
Even Jesus did not heal everyone if he did than there would have been none left for Peter and Paul consider the blind man at the gate it says that he wsa placed there every day .Acts 3. We know Jesus passed through this gate yet the man was never healed. But it was left for Peter. Not only this but Jesus did nothing about slavery, and the corrupt government and priesthood of His day. That was not His mission but for countless other believers it has been, because that is what God has asked them to do. I hope that makes sense.
Heidi,
Thanks for your comments about Jake. I think people need to see Him also as more than just the comments on this blog. But again it is the comments that we are searching the scriptures to validate, not Jake himself.
Again you say that,about our sin nature being so “always there” but knowing that we have a savior who is quick to forgive and love
But I think that you need to remember that not only has our loving Savior quick to forgive but also quick to set free.
Rom 6:6
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
We cannot just focus on the forgivness adn forget the freedom, it is just as important.
Then you said,in fact jake made me laugh one day that he has the capability to be “carnality on a stick” if not for jesus and his work within him
This statement of Jake is very true, we all have the capability to be the cheif of all sinners. But again we are not talking about what we are capable of doing without Christ in us, but what we ARE capable of doing IN Christ.And that is
Gal 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you MAY not sin. And IF anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
Thanks for your comments Hiedi
hey guys can we move to the next blog spot? it takes me a really long time to scroll to the end of this one, much appreciated, good conversation, i am learning a lot. God bless all of you!
jason,
your welcome but it was for jake. one question for you… why do you feel the need to put everyone on the defensive? i feel attacked and im thinking jake feels your attack, and im sure im missing a few that feel the same way..
i cannot argue with your scripture, but i feel i need to say that i feel you point things out with condescension…. your quote,”But I think that you need to remember that not only has our loving Savior quick to forgive but also quick to set free.”…. as if you know if i have forgotten something…. how do you know what all i feel and think? and to belittle this quote of mine…”in fact jake made me laugh one day that he has the capability to be “carnality on a stick” if not for jesus and his work within him”…. you dont know the conversation or our hearts when we had that conversation, so please refrain from inserting something that points to us having an unholy conversation….
sometimes saying nothing is more powerful than always voicing your opnion, jason… i say this because you draw me in continually, when my comments are not written to you personally, i wrote my last comment to encourage jake, and to show your painted picture was wrong of him…. he is a powerful brother in the lord and i will stand by him and help repel a small few of the arrows pointed in his direction….
also if you are going to add emphasis to scripture you really need to state that you did… that is adding to scripture, and your intrepetation of emphasis might be debatable..
Hiedi
I thought it was obvious that I capitalized the scripture sorry, but everyone is capitalizing there points, I was just following suit.
If you believe that the interpretaion is wrong tell me when and how. Thats what I want.
I am not attacking, and I dont feel attacked when for instance Jake says that I am saying I am sinless, just misunderstood, so please give me the same benefit of doubt.
If I misunderstood you show me how.
I am willing to be corrected.
In fact I am very thankful for this blog to be able to discuss theology, it is not like we can do this sitting in church while the Pastor is preaching.
I hope that helps show my motive.
Here’s the problem. Jason, you sometimes come across like a pompous, self-righteous pharisee. In your zeal for the truth you’re beating people to death with your Scripture club. You keep implying that Jake (and others) are glorifying and promoting sin and sinful lifestyles, rather than assuming they were making a humble confession of struggle. The signs “I covet” and “I lust”, etc. were not promotional (i.e. ‘Hey, I covet and I highly recommend you do to’), they were confessional. A person who struggles (fights) with sin is a good thing, right? It’s evidence they are truly His.
You see, the Pharisees majored on external righteousness. Their view of sin was superficial. The Lord Jesus came along and revealed that the sin problem was much deeper. ‘It’s not what goes into a man that defiles him, it’s what comes out’. Sin is a heart issue. Often times Christians will pride themselves in their external righteousness (they don’t steal, lie, fornicate, etc.), but they allow and even excuse the sins of the spirit (pride, inappropriate anger, malice, bitterness, lust, covetousness, etc.). Paul says we’re to ‘cleanse ourselves of every defilement of body and spirit’.
The Pharisees were experts in the Scripture and could slice and dice people to shreds with their deft knowledge of the Torah. But in so doing they violated the very Scriptures they claimed to love. Jason, I fear you do the same. Paul said ‘if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing’ and ‘Knowledge puffs up; love builds up’. Rather than accusing us of having bad theology and doctrine, how about practicing that highest of Christian virtues-love.
Pastor Greg
Pastor Greg,
No, that is not what I am saying at all. But, I was speaking of other possible avenues when dealing with people, perceptions, and THEIR FEELINGS. Are you saying you are elevated to the level of our Saviour Jesus Christ in your dealings and decision-making process with our LDS neighbors? (Surely you don’t but your question was simply a justification and NOT truly a reply to my post.) You and your church can justify your self-righteous actions and your media stunts all you want. I don’t care. I was simply offering another angle to consider and you felt you needed to defend yourself. Was just something I heard while visiting another church and was passing it along. Don’t close your mind to other options that aren’t ones you or your congregation thought up.
Blessings.
Pastor Greg,
I just read your last post to Jason. Wow, I am reading/studying 1 Corinthians and Chapter 8 (which you quoted)was where I was this morning along with 1 John Chapter 2. Great points. Self-righteousness (puffing up) is a scary weapon.
Blessings
James,
Be careful not to put God in a box. If God told someone to go to the temple to witness to Mormons then who are you to say it is wrong. It may not be for you and God may not speak to you to even witness to the LDS. God may send you to witness to the Jehovah Witnesses by buying them a soda or a donut and he may send someone else to confront them forcefully with scripture. God will use us to spread His word in any way he believes is effective. You said, “I’m actually a member of a local non-denominational church and was at TFRC with a friend that day but found that approach rather insightful and much more Christ-like.” Do you find John 2:13-17 Christ-like?
If I spend time in Gods word and believe that He sends me to a certain place at a certain time, prayerfully considering where He is leading me then I am foolish to disobey.
I was not called to witness at the LDS temple but a couple of my good friends were. Very few of the people witnessing to the LDS at the temple were even from the Lighthouse but we have received most all of the credit. God has used that outreach in a mighty way and has touched many lives. I have had great conversations with many people regarding this outreach and had numerous opportunities to discuss God and His Word and have seen many come to Christ because of this outreach. I have spoken to others that have seen whole families come out of the LDS church and come to Christ as a direct result of this outreach. It seems that nearly all of the negative comments I have heard as a result of that outreach have come from people that claim to be “Christian”. There are many to claim to have a better way to share their faith and I hope that they use them. The question is… would we even be having this conversation if not for the controversy? Every conversation we do engage in is an opportunity to share our faith and certainly keeps us talking about what is important; Christ.
May God richly bless you and your conversations that center on Him,
~Bruce
Bruce,
Thank you for your response. Loved it. Again though, I was not saying one way was better or worse than another . . . was just pointing out a bridging effort as an option. Of course Jesus’ clearing the temple was Christ-like. For anyone to say otherwise would be claiming that Christ Himself was not Christ-like. Not possible. Anyway, was not trying to stir the pot, ruffle feathers, offend anyone, but offering something I had heard while visiting a friend at another local church. I have no doubt your motives are to bring others to Christ just as all Christians should. I have no doubt you act in love. Last time I’ll say it, I was simply passing along an option for someone, possibly such as yourself who “was not called to witness at the LDS temple”, to use as a bridging opportunity. Bridging opens up the dialog. No offense intended for any of you brothers or sisters in Jesus.
Blessings
Hey James,
None taken….g
Hello.
:)
“The birth took place at the couple’s home (just outside Oslo),” says the palace, adding mother and baby were both well.
Bye.
James,
Thank you for sharing your position and continuing to give insight into your comments. It has been said before and we all need to remember that there is more to our Language than just words but they are still a wonderful way of communicating.
I am a believer in the fact that sometimes the pot needs to be stirred or it will burn on the bottom and the stuff on the top just sits there. I know that there are times when God has lit a fire under me and caused me to stir. There are also times that great things can be done for God by rustling a few feathers. Complacency can bring stagnation so there are times when a good swift kick can keep us moving.
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”, Edmund Burke.
I appreciate your input and giving me an opportunity to post my input as a response. I know that there are many out there that read the blog and yet never get involved in the conversation. Just like every day life…one day there will be something said that will get their attention and maybe ruffle a few feathers to get them to be an active participant, not just a bench warmer.
God Bless,
~Bruce
Dear LCF,
I just wated to let you know that I had heard of the temple opening from some friends and was praying for you (all the way in Michigan!). I was just checking in today and saw this blog. You people are so amazing and I agree that God’s creativity flows freely at LCF! I miss what you have so much and want to encourage you to not let any comments from anyone take that away! Check your heart, check your bible, then go for it with all you have!!!! My family lives in a community of “christians”, yes we are all saved and going to heaven so no one to proest, right? Yet this is one of the most stifeled areas I have lived in. Go to church twice on Sunday, maybe Wednesday, use christianese, but don’t get all “full of the spirit” on me, that’s too much. I love to hear that all of you are letting the spirit flow!
RENEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!! How are you??? I have had you on my heart lately so much and (bad friend, slap my wrist) I haven’t called you! I almost had time to call today but that didn’t happen either! I hope you all are doing great up there in Michigan! We miss you BADLY here. When ya coming back??? Everyone eventually moves back here ya know, no sense in holding back on the inevitable. It’s nice to see your name here, post more often and tell Tom hello and hug those kiddos ok?? :)
c