Things that make you go, ‘Hmmm’
I read an interesting quote today that I thoroughly agree with: “If I should hear a man advocate the erroneous principles he had imbibed through education, and oppose those principles, some might imagine that I was opposed to that man, when in fact I am only opposed to every evil and erroneous principle he advances.”
When Christians speak against false teachings we inevitably get accused of ‘bashing’. Then when we try and say, ‘We love the person but oppose the teaching’, we are given a deaf ear.
I read another great quote today: “If a faith will not bear investigation; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be weak.”
Again, when Christians examine the various teachings and hold them up to the scrutiny of the Bible (as we are commanded to do), we get accused of bashing and hating. Why is that? Why are we accused of persecuting other faiths and bashing other religions? Why can’t we investigate the claims of self-proclaimed prophets and examine the doctrines of the various religions and gurus to see if they stand up under scrutiny? Why must our motives be suspect? Is it not possible for our motive to be noble? Could it be out of concern for the eternal well-being of people?
By the way, the first quote above was uttered by none other than Brigham Young in 1859 (Journal of Discourses 7:191). The second quote was uttered by Young’s first counselor George A. Smith (Journal of Discourses 14:216). I couldn’t agree more with each of them!
Why do modern-day Mormons fail to see what Brigham Young and George A. Smith saw? It makes me go, ‘Hmmm’.
Comments
154 Responses to “Things that make you go, ‘Hmmm’”
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh snap!!!! love this blog…. any religious person that gets offended when their religion is bashed, is actually a good thing in a way… there are to many shallow people taking a stand for nothing, so i have more respect for someone that feels enough to be offended… they truly believe what the are taught or read or whatever….. the thing that is horrible is the personal attack and name calling and prideful behavior that is my turn off to their message… it is just a lack of respect to care enough to want to understand where the other person comes from and then progressing with love is the key… and if it doest fall on fertile ground its time to move on and let god work…. thank you greg for your example.. online and in life!!
Wow! Cha ching!! We are all truly sheep in need of our Shepherd!!!
Greg, you continue to blow my mind by the things the Lord speaks through you. I study the Word, but obviously not to the degree you do. What a gift!
I am learning, in some harder ways than I wished for, that I can do nothing apart from the grace of God. If I weren’t such a stubborn, pig-headed sheep, it would be so much easier. I want to do it all on my own. And again and again the Lord says to give it to Him. I think it seems, in our tiny sheep-like brains, that we have to “do” something, when there is nothing we can do. We make the easiest thing out to be the hardest. His grace is enough, period, end of story.
I pray that our LDS friends and neighbors, as well as others who don’t know Jesus will come to understand His grace. Our faith is far from weak. And our foundation is rock solid! I said it in my other post, but it is worth repeating. “Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.” There is no substitute!
I totally agree with you Deana. I am the type that wants to solve every problem on my own and do things my way. I am still learning to “Let go, & let God”.
Greg, I also have to agree with Deana, you totally blow my mind by the things that you say. You are tuly a man of God. I have been to Lighthouse three times now and I am totally hooked on your church. I have listened to a couple of your sermons via the website and love everything that you have to say. And the way that you lovingly handle our Mormon neighbors is awesome in itself. Thank God for a wonderful insrument that He has made you to be for us all. Looking forward to the next service!
Greg…I gotta agree. I’m so thankful to call Lighthouse my home. I love my church family’s heart for the mormon people despite the fact that they think we hate them. Honestly, I don’t see any hate in any of this. We love them enough to reach out and they see that as “bashing.” I just don’t understand. However, God knows and understands it all.
In Christ
Yeah Sammie… we reach out to the Mormons with love and it’s “bashing” but they “reach out to us” cause they think we need the saving and they aren’t “bashing” anybody. Are we the only ones that see this parallel? By the way…. you haven’t called us in a long time!!! Have you tried to make that enchilada cassarole again? :)
very true Mandie! and no I have not tried to make that casserole again. I didn’t like it too much last time but my family loved it (maybe they were just being nice)!
Enchilada casserole?!??!?! YUM! What’s all the talk about food on here? You guys are killing me! (yes, I’m on a diet) :P
haha, sorry we kinda changed the topic. Mandie’s casserole is much better than mine, I guess I still have more learning to do! we need to get back to the original topic here!
Sorry guys! I know how you feel cynthia!I am trying to stay on track with a diet as well but it is just so hard! Anyways… anyone wanna get back in topic here and save us from ourselves!?!?! LOL
“I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible; compare the religion of the Latter-Day Saints with it will stand the test.” – Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 16:46
In my study of the LDS religion, I have found that there are a great many things that have been taught, are being taught and will be taught that contradict the teachings of the LDS church-within the LDS church.
“A house divided against itself cannot stand.” Abraham Lincoln, June 1858
We must STAND FIRM on the Word of God and not be divided in the Truths of the Bible. We must be speaking the truth in Love to our friends and neighbors and be ready to pick them up when they fall!
It is easy to attack what we do not understand. We can be complacent when the sea is calm and simply rest and go with the flow. “Don’t rock the boat!” is a defense mechanism meant to inspire complacency. “Why can’t you just leave them alone?” “Let the sleeping dog lie?”
I love my children very much and so I discipline them and correct them as God also does with me. If I truly did not love my children it would be much easier to let them do whatever they wanted. Should I leave alone the LDS people, Jehovah Witnesses or any others that I recognize going down the wrong path to destruction? Would I be showing love by allowing them to plunge to their death by not warning them of the cliff just around the corner? They are bloody and bruised from beating their heads against their works and still they refuse to listen to us. Who are they listening to?
“God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the Children of Israel, and he made me to be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be the mouth for me; and if you don’t like it, you must lump it.” – Joseph Fielding Smith, Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 363
This is not the God I serve. My God is alive and well and teaching me true Love! I guess I’m not ready to leave them alone.
I have been very closely involved with both ‘Christian’ church members and LDS members. I am not LDS, however, I find by far and wide that their morals and values far surpass ‘Christians’. I have attended their church services and spent time with them in all avenues of life. I have never heard any of them ‘bash’ another religion or church and have many times heard and known of them working with, helping and speaking highly of members of other churches. Why is it whenever I mention the LDS church to a ‘christian’, they have a negative comment? Are they (you) jealous?
I do not agree with some of their beliefs and doubt that I ever will, but I highly respect them as people. I think you should all put the energy you are spending against the LDS church to a better use!
But susie!
Lighthouse Christian just loves me (who happens to be a Mormon) too much. They don’t want me to go to hell! lol
By the way, what was going on outside temple grounds during the afternoon of Aug. 1 wasn’t pretty. People touring the temple deserve better than to have profanities hurled at them. Maybe the heat was getting to a protester or two? I hope Pastor Greg is glad of the way he has stirred up contentions between religious groups here in southern Idaho. Satan would be proud.
I hope my dear Lighthouse Christian brothers and sisters realize that the Bible points to God, but man can surely twist its meaning to fit his/her beliefs. Take one scripture, and I’ll bet different ministers will give you 100 or more different interpretations of it. I’m even more sure of this upon reading postings on this site and on the times-news web site.
Hey, I posted these links elsewhere but probably nobody saw them so If Pastor Greg gives me permission I’ll do it again.
http://www.jimfeeney.org/apostlesandprophets.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml
Well, excuse me, Pastor Greg isn’t the cause of all of it … but I think most of it points directly to Lighthouse and a few choice churches.
Everyone … learn what the LDS church is really about. Anti-Mormon literature will just lead you downhill.
oh wow…here we go. I think I was liking the food talk better. Let’s just all get together and submit our own recipes for enchilada casserole and THEN we’ll see who’s jealous!!
Somehow, I think the Mormons will win. Did you know they have their own cookbook too!? I’ve seen it at my LDS friend’s house! (Yes “Suzi Q” I have LDS friends too, believe it or not..they ARE wonderful people) But.. I’ve never seen a cookbook called “Christian Cooking”! Ok, I Googled it. The first entry that came up was “Christian Vegan Cooking”!! LOL Now THAT’S funny!! There’s no such thing as a Christian Vegan!! pffffttt!! Because just with my little Bible Study about food last night, the people of the Bible sure like their meat! And yes, Mandie, your husband is right. The Word itself is “meat”.
Great, now I probably offended the vegans.
ok sorry guys…i couldn’t resist…that’s just my way of saying, GOOD GRIEF. I’m a sinner, what can I say, my morals and values aren’t in check. *sigh*
Robert…I have been reading several of your posts (on this thread and others). Thank you for coming to the website and offering your input on these things. Honestly, its helpful to know your thoughts. Please don’t think that all of this is anti-Mormon! Yes, “Lighthouse and a few other choice churches” are reaching out to the you and other Mormons, but it is out of LOVE. Lighthouse loves Mormons and we find serious discrepancies within Mormon doctrine. Hopefully one of these days we can all get together with some enchilada casserole and talk more about all this…by then maybe I will have my casserole perfected. Mandi’s is still better than mine!
In Christ,
Well, Robert, has it occurred to you that maybe it isn’t this church that’s anti-Mormon, maybe the Mormon church is anti-Christian??
Jennifer,
I think Lighthouse’s “anti” stance goes back for years. If members of Lighthouse loved us members of the LDS church so much, maybe they should show it in different ways other than handing out anti-Mormon literature. Do something that uplifts and inspires rather than tears, or rather, tries to tear down. Have you ever thought the tactics of the protesters are doing a lot more harm to Lighthouse than good?
I know that Jesus Christ himself stands at the head of the LDS church. I am saddened by so-called “Christians” who try to tear down a church they really know nothing about except what they glean from anti-Mormon literature, ministers and Web sites. How sad is that!?!
I would like to ask Bruce how many LDS books he has read that aren’t of the “anti” variety. Taking an isolated quote from Joseph Smith doesn’t prove a whole lot in my opinion. Here’s a quote to balance that one out: “The purposes of our God are great, His love unfathomable, His wisdom infinite, and His power unlimited; therefore, the Saints have cause to rejoice and be glad, knowing that ‘this God is our God forever and ever, and He will be our Guide until death.’
In Christ’s love …
Nice post Robert.
I just try to understand why Lighthouse dedicates a whole web page to defend their stand on mormons. Why not catholics, muslims, scientologists, etc. Catholics are also referred to as ‘christian’. Also, I am confident that the mormon church would not ‘picket’ the opening of your church.
I’m a little confused by your “anti” references. I read the Bible. The Bible in itself is anti Mormon, because it does not support Mormon doctrine. The Bible is also anti-evolution and anti-homosexual. The Bible does not seek to tear people down, but it tells them the truth. That’s what this church seeks to do as well. (I have never attended this particular church, I don’t live in Twin Falls, but I do attend a Bible-based, non-denominational church)
Jennifer,
Maybe you can have Jerry pass out Bibles instead of his regular pamphlets? By the way, I think I almost accidentally ran over a protester today when he jumped out toward my moving car in his eagerness to hand out his stuff. Don’t they know roads are for cars, sidewalks for pedestrians?
But anyway, I guess we are both confused because I surely don’t see the Bible as conflicting with doctrine of the LDS church.
It’s all how you interpret the scriptures. For instance, I get confused when people attempt to use scripture to “prove” that the Bible is all of God’s word and there can be no more scripture.
I also get very confused at traditional Christianity’s concept of God. The three-in-one God concept that came out of the Nicene Creed is … uh … let’s say it’s just very interesting.
Here’s a question. If man was made in the image of God, what does God look like?
I hope all of us can be guided toward the truth through study and prayer.
Hey folks,
Interesting comments. Can we pleeeeaaase differentiate between anti-Mormon and anti-Mormonism? I am most decidedly PRO-Mormon! That is, I love the mormon people and desire them to be saved. But I am decidedly anti-Mormonism. That is, I am absolutely opposed to the doctrines and teachings that constitute ‘Mormonism’. They are a distortion of the ‘faith once for all delivered’.
Robert, I have read enough direct information from Joseph Smith, D&C, Pearl of Great Price, to know what essential Mormon doctrine is. I’m not saying that ALL Mormons believe what these books teach. In fact, it’s obviously from reading comments here and elsewhere that there is a general lack of understanding of Mormon doctrine. But be that as it may, essential Mormon doctrine puts forth that all other churches (other than Mormon) are apostate. It would seem to me that if you really believed that, you would work really hard to reach us poor, deluded apostates. That would be the loving thing to do….wouldn’t it?
BTW, please stop beating the Nicene Creed drum. I can certainly show you the triune nature of the Almighty in the Bible if you’re interested…..peace, g
Pastor Greg,
I have no doubt that you could lay out your belief of the nature of the Trinity using scriptures from the Bible. Can you hear that drum beating in the distance?
You aren’t apostates … I think that’s the wrong word according to the definition of dictionary.com. All Christian churches have good in them, but the LDS church invites everyone to consider its teachings and see if it can add to the good they already have.
As stated earlier, people are really going to struggle with doctrine of the LDS church if they exclusively read about it from, as you say, “anti-Mormonism” sources.
Take care and may God guide your actions …
Robert,
There is a track put out by Institute for Religious Research titled “Is Mormonism Christian?” (link below)
http://www.irr.org/pdfs/Is-Mormonism-Christian.pdf
The conclusion to this track reads as follows:
“If the Mormon Church believes it is the only true Christian Church, it should not attempt to publicly present itself as part of a broader Christian community. Instead it should tell the world openly that those who claim to be orthodox Christians are not really Christian at all, and that the Mormon Church is the only true Christian Church. This in fact is what it teaches privately, but not publicly.”
If “All Christian churches have good in them” then maybe Joseph Smith’s first vision should be changed for the 10th time.
Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, wrote that in the spring of 1820, when he was fourteen years old, there was a significant revival in his neighborhood. He recounted that “Some were contending for the Methodist faith, some for the Presbyterian, and some for the Baptist.” His mother, two brothers and his sister joined the Presbyterian Church. Then Smith went out into the woods to pray for wisdom concerning which church he should join. In answer to this prayer God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him as two separate, distinct beings. They told him not to join any of the churches “for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith—History 1:5-19). Mormon claims still stand on the historicity of that 1820 vision.
Joseph said of the churches
1. they were ALL wrong
2. their creeds were an abomination
3. their professors were all corrupt.
Where does “All Christian churches have good in them” fit into Joseph’s current first vision story?
Well put, Jerry. I also have a book entitled, “So, What’s The Difference.” In it the author compares the major religions to Christianity. He not only gives an accurate retelling of Mormon doctrine, he lists it in the “cults” section. Don’t know why that’s important, but just wanted to put that out there.
Jerry,
Is this what this is all about — you feel picked on? Christian churches do teach about Christ. Hey, that’s one good thing they have going for them. There are more good things I could say about them too!
So, you don’t agree with Joseph Smith then?
Jerry,
Did you have a nice weekend?
To answer your question, I believe there was an apostasy. I guess the moral of the story is that Christ disapproves when the philosophies of men creep into the gospel.
The review of these following identifiers from the Bible should tell us if Lighthouse is truly teaching and following the Church that Christ and his Apostles set up at the Meridian of time. (Please honestly read these scriptures from your Bible and ask yourself if Lighthouse complies with God’s Word.)
1) Christ organized the Church. (Ephesians 4:11-14 & 1 Corinthians 12:27-29)
2) Same organization as Christ’s Church. (Ephesians 4:11-14)
3) Will be a restored Church. (Acts 3:19-21 & Matt 17:11-15)
4) The Church will bear the name of Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 3:21 & Acts 4:12)
5) Will claim revelation from God. (Proverbs 29:18 & Amos 3:7)
6) Officers must be called by God. (Hebrews 5:4 & Exodus 40:13-16)
7) Will not have a paid Ministry. ( 1 Corinthians 9:18 & 1 Peter 5:1-3)
8) Will have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets. (Ephesians 2:19-20)
9) Will be a missionary Church/Work. ( 2 Tim. 4:12 & Matt. 28:19-20)
10) Will claim Devine Authority. (John 15:16 & Hebrews 5:4-12)
11) Will practice Divine healing. (Mark 16:17-18 & James 5:14-16)
12) Will teach that God and Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone. (Gen. 1:26-27 & Luke 24:36-39)
13) Will teach that God and Jesus Christ are separate and distinct Individuals. (Acts 7:55-56; John 20:17; 1 John 5:7; Matt 3:16-17; Matt 17:5; Father and Son are one in purpose – John 10:30; John 17:11 & John chapter 17; Matt 26:39 Christ prays to the Father, not to Himself.)
14) Will Bestow the Holy Ghost by Laying on of Hands (2 Tim. 1:6-7 & Acts 8:16-17)
15) Members will be called Saints. (1 Corintians 14:33 & Ephesians 4:12)
16) Will baptize by imersion. (Matt 3:13-16 & John 3:23)
17) Will practice Baptism for the dead. (1 Corintians 15:29 & Hebrews 11:39-40)
18) Will teach men and women to follow the commandments of God, for which they will be judged and saved by the Grace of God. (Heb. 11:1; John 20:29; Mark 9:23; Matt 6:33; Matt 7:21 John 7:17; 1 John 2:4-6; James 2:14-16; Romans 2:13; 2 Peter 1:5; 1 Corintians 13:1-7,13; John 14:21; John 14:15; Revelations 4:21; Revelations 22:14; Revelations 3:21 & Revelations 20:12)
I would pray that you honestly read these scriptures from the Bible and ask yourself if the Lighthouse is truly following the Bible in it’s doctrine and organization. The honest in heart, that are truly seeking the truth, that are open to the Spirit, will see the truth of God’s Word and recognize if they are going in the direction that the Bible and Christ has taught us.
May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you as you seek the truth and “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.”
Caleb
Caleb,
No church is going to save ANYONE, no matter how it is structured.
John 6
28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus is the answer, not the LDS church, not the Lighthouse, not the Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians. Caleb, it is Jesus and your relationship with Him. He is not the spirit brother of Lucifer. He is the ONE true God and there is NO other.
Isaiah 44:6 (King James Version)
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Jerry
Hey Caleb,
Welcome to my blog. I’m sorry, but there’ll be no Scripture-twisting here. Fortunately, the folks at Lighthouse are discerning and will recognize that you are wresting Scripture out of its context to prove your LDS pretext. You’re coming from a framework that accepts the supposed revelation of Joseph Smith whereby he learned that all churches were apostate and the gospel needed restoration. We however, believe that when Jesus said, ‘I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it’, He meant it.
Lots of groups/cults use the Scriptures to bolster their heretical beliefs (Jehovah’s Witnesses/Fundamental Latter Day Saints/Re-organized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, etc.), but God doesn’t take it lightly. In fact, it’s blasphemy.
Caleb, you’re following a false prophet. Joseph Smith made false prophecy after false prophecy. He’s a man who apparently had upwards of 34 wives-including two 14-year-old girls. I humbly ask you to come out of the false religion known as the LDS and receive the free gift of God-eternal life through Jesus Christ.
peace, g
I like number four on your list though.
4.The Church will bear the name of Jesus Christ.
So, because the name “Lighthouse” doesn’t have the name of Jesus Christ in its title it’s not a “true” church. That’s ridiculous! We are “Christians.” That is the church. Not the building we congregate in! And that name does bear the name of Christ. The LDS church bears the name of Christ ONLY so that they can deceive people into believing they are a Christ centered church. That might work for some people who don’t know enough about the religion, but you can’t fool God.
Ephesians 2:19-20 (King James Version)
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Caleb, as far as the structure of the church these show that the LDS church has it wrong. Both scriptures put apostles BEFORE prophets. Who does the LDS put first?
Jerry
Hey Caleb,
Thanks for joining in on the discussion. One of the most important things that you can learn from the Bible is to always keep things in Context. Your discussions fit right in with Pastor Greg’s original topic of ‘Things that make you go Hmmm’.
For instance, if you will take the first passage that you put out as ‘Christ organized the Church’ you use as a reference, Ephesians 4:11-14 and 1 Corinthians 12:27-29 that I believe you are using these passages as a reference as to the structure of how the LDS church is organized. If you will go back and read the entire chapter of Eph. 4 and the entire chapter of 1 Cor. 12, Paul is speaking to the fact that we all have gifts that God has given us, that there are many parts that make up one body and we all have a purpose unique to the way God has gifted us. Please also make reference to scriptures in these passages, “For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.” 1 Cor. 12:12. “One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.” Eph. 4:5-6. This speaks to the fact that there is only one God and the true church is the body of believers that use their gifts to bring glory to Him and not an organization.
Keep studying and remember; Context, context, context.
Bruce
Jennifer,
An interesting tid-bit concerning having Christ or Jesus Christ in the name of a church from a commentary by Eric Johnson – The Name of God’s Church.
“The LDS Church’s title has not always had Christ’s name since its foundation on April 6, 1830. The Mormon scripture Doctrine and Covenants 20:1 reports that the original name of the church was the “Church of Christ.” In 1834, the name was changed to “The Church of Latter-day Saints” (History of the Church 2:63). This took place at a priesthood conference at which Joseph Smith was present. The vote was unanimous. Note that the name of Christ was completely omitted. This was the church’s official title until April 26, 1838 when it was changed again to its current name.”
Bruce
… oh the delightful search for truth. Of course no “traditional” Christians would ever twist a scripture to favor their beliefs, would they? (wink)
Hey Robert,
I’m not searching for truth. The Truth sought me out and found me. ‘I am the Truth’ Jesus said. (John 14:6). ‘I came to seek and save the lost’ (Luke 19:10)
peace, g
Bruce,
That’s interesting. I’d never heard or read that before. Thanks for sharing! :-)
It’s interesting you feel that way, greg. I think most of the time it requires some action on our part. Matt. 7:7
I’m glad you find my statements interesting, Robert! Jesus Christ, the sum total of all truth (John 14:6/Colossians 2:3), while I was dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1) sought me out (Luke 19:10), chose me (John 15:16). So now that I have eternal life, I am invited by Jesus to ‘…come and learn of (Him)….’ In other words, now that the Truth (Jesus) has chosen me, sought after me, found me, saved me and lives inside of me, I get to spend my life seeking Him, loving Him, glorifying Him and praising Him until He comes again. So again, I’m not searching for the Truth, the Truth found me……g
Tisk Tisk. Twist God’s Word out of context in the Bible as you try. The Truth speaks louder than your words. If you truly in your heart want to know the Truth and read the whole Bible, rather than twisting a few selected scriptures to meet the teachings of man, then the Lord’s Spirit will guide you to the Truth of all things, “and ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.”
May God bless you as you read, study and pray about God’s Word in the Bible, that you will be honest to yourself and God about what the Bible truly says and teaches, to open your heart to the Spirit and to be guided to the Truth.
Caleb
Caleb,
Plagiarism is a HUGE problem in the Book of Mormon. Below is a copy of page 153 out of Utah Lighthouse Ministries’ book “Major Problems of Mormonism”
————————————————-
As we have already shown, the Nephites were not supposed to have had the books of the New Testament because they were written hundreds of years after they left Jerusalem. Nevertheless, we find a large number of New Testament verses and parts of verses strewn throughout the Book of Mormon. The following list of parallels between the Book of Mormon and the New Testament is just a sample (the reader will find many more parallels in “Mormonism- Shadow or Reality?” pp.74-78). All of the verses from the Book of Mormon were supposed to have been written between 600 B.C. and A.D. 33.
KJV: made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14)
BM: made white in the blood of the Lamb (1 Nephi 12:11)
KJV: shall be saved; yet so as by fire (1 Cor. 3:15)
BM: shall be saved, even if it so be by fire (1 Nephi 22:17)
KJV: O wretched man that I am (Rom. 7:24)
BM: O wretched man that I am (2 Nephi 4:17)
KJV: death and hell delivered up the dead (Rev. 20:13)
BM: death and hell must deliver up their dead (2 Nephi 9:12)
KJV: he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still (Rev. 22:11
BM: they who are righteous shall be righteous still, and they who are filthy shall be filthy still (2 Nephi 9:16)
KJV: endured the cross, despising the shame (Heb. 12:2)
BM: endured the crosses of the world, and desised the shame (2 Nephi 9:18)
KJV: to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life (Rom. 8:6)
BM:to be carnally-minded is death; but to be spiritually-minded is life (2 Nephi 9:39)
KJV: the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world (John 1:29)
BM: the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world (1 Nephi 10:10)
KJV: steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work (1 Cor. 15:58)
BM: steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in good works (Mosiah 5:15)
KJV: Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free (Gal. 5:1)
BM: Stand fast in that liberty wherewith God hath made them free (Alma 58:40)
KJV: Marvel not that… Ye must be born again (John 3:7)
BM: Marvel not that all mankind… must be born again (Mosiah 27:25)
KJV: come out from among them, and be ye separate,… and touch not the unclean thing (2 Cor. 6:17)
BM: come ye out from the wicked, and be ye separate, and touch not their unclean things (Alma 5:57)
KJV: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up (John 3:14)
BM: And as he lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness, even so shall he be lifted up who should come (Helaman 8:14)
————————————————–
If the Book of Mormon was Joseph Smith’s homework assignment from school, he would have failed because he plagiarized so much. It is also VERY interesting that Joseph could translate in King James English from “Reformed Egyptian”???
Caleb, you need to seek truth from somewhere other than from Joseph Smith.
Below are links where the books, mentioned above, are on the Utah Lighthouse Ministries website
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/mormonismshadoworreality_ub001.htm
http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/majorproblemsofmormonism_ub004.htm
Checkout these videos from the outreach at the Twin Falls LDS temple opening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJoxuxtCi7s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmglHD2fb00&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03fcRVK3-eU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KyfAkU8×60&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BJl5wtuxmo&feature=related
Caleb,
The problem with that comment is this: We have no agenda. We don’t have a set of man-made doctrines that we must skew the Bible’s teachings to coincide with. In fact, we have few doctrines at all. Yes, we have guidelines from the Bible we try to live up to, but we know that we all make mistakes and that God is waiting to forgive us, because we bear our cross daily. We are not looking for truth! We know truth because we know Christ. If you’re still looking for truth then God hasn’t sought you out yet. And that, my friend, should be a VERY scary thought. So if that’s the case, I urge you to quit searching in your man-made doctrines and inquire of God.
Like you quoted earlier, “and ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free.” If you know the truth, you’ll be led away from the mormon religion, because Christ is truth, and He would never lead you to a false prophet. In fact, the Bible warns against them.
In Christ and in truth,
Jennifer
Please go through each of the 18 points, individually, from the Bible, that I listed on my 8-19-08 post, and tell me how you are following that particular teaching or doctrine from the Bible in your ministry today. I would be (and I’m sure your followers would be) interested to see how you twist your way out of each of these pure doctrinally sound Bible teachings.
If the doctrinal teachings of Christ’s restored Church through Joseph Smith more fully follows the Bible in all respects, then it certainly does make me go “Hmmm”. “By their fruits ye shall know them”.
May the Lord’s grace, love and the Spirit be with you.
Caleb
“By their fruits ye shall know them”.
Joseph Smith married at least 34 women and children. Two fourteen year-olds, 11 teenagers, 11 women that were still married to other men, two young women and their mothers, and sisters. Today Joseph Smith would be in jail along with Warren Jeffs. He was a child molester, an adulterer, a sex addict, and a liar. He married 16 year-old Fanny Alger in 1833, just three years after the start of the Mormon Church. He lied about practicing polygamy for at least 10 years. He wasn’t even honest with his practice of polygamy to his own wife, he did it behind her back. Emma later poisoned Joseph Smith.
I ask you Caleb, WHAT KIND OF FRUIT IS THIS?
Jerry
In Sacred Loneliness; the Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, by Todd Compton
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/In-Sacred-Loneliness/Todd-Compton/e/9781560850854/?itm=7
Caleb,
I will gladly give you your 18 points without the Mormon spin, if you will explain what appears to be plagiarism in the Book of Mormon and the immorality (polygamy/false prophecies) of Joseph Smith-the founder of your religion. BTW, Bruce already gave the context for your point #1…..g
Why People Leave the LDS Church ( Mormon )
by John P. Dehlin, LDS member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs
The above link will take you to a webcast given by John P. Dehlin, president of Sunstone. Interesting that he says many people are leaving the LDS church. Two thirds of LDS members are inactive, WHY? Watch the video.
Jerry
caleb
concerning #14
the Holy Spirit is alive and well at
lighthouse as well as many other chuches
in the valley.this is the same Spirit that
will lift you out of your seat and raise
your hands and voice in praise of the
Lord.this is the same spirit that guides
me to care for my 92 year old neighbor
when no one from her family or church
seems to have the time.
caleb i invite you to come see the
power and glory of the Holy Spirit in
action at lighthouse or another church
if you prefer.
YE SHALL KNOW THE SPIRIT AND THE SPIRIT SHALL
MAKE YOU FREE.
God bless,jay
17) Will practice Baptism for the dead. (1 Corintians 15:29 & Hebrews 11:39-40)
1 Corinthians 15:29 (King James Version)
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Hebrews 11
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
In 1 Corinthians 15:29 Paul uses the word “they” NOT “we”. I don’t think Paul is suggesting that he or “we” should baptize the dead, it just doesn’t add up, Caleb.
In Hebrews 11: 39&40 Baptism for the dead isn’t even mentioned.
So Caleb, the whole doctrine of baptism for the dead is built on one verse where Paul says they, not we, are baptized for the dead. Pretty weak. Kind of like saying the atonement took place in the garden of Gethsemane when it is only mentioned twice in the bible. The cross is mentioned over 20 times, and the CROSS is where the atonement took place.
Galatians 6:14
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Jerry makes an excellent point as to the reference of the only mention in the entire Bible of Baptism for the dead. It is made reference to of someone other than Paul and the church in Corinth performing this ritual and he is not encouraging them to follow this practice.
Hebrews 9:27 says, “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”. This is consistent with the teachings of the BoM that make reference to the fact that once we die, our fate is locked in. Alma 34:34-35 “Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
It looks to me as if there eternal consequences placed on being right with God before we die!
~Bruce
Didn’t know you guys were having a party down here.. Hey, Robert. Glad to see that you’re still with us and you brought a friend. Way Cool!!!
Nice to see the dialogue is continuing. LOVE that you are looking at the bible Caleb…. Pastor g has committed to answering your questions… I am sure his answers will be meaty and complete, but if he doesn’t answer them for you… the rest of us will.
Something I find disturbing in all of this dialogue is that there seems to be an absence of real defense for the LDS faith. I mean, if I am hearing the heart of the whole deal, we really are talking about the beliefs of two different faiths are we not? If we’re only here to prove or disprove that Lighthouse loves the mormon people, you have to take that from the source…. you have been talking at length with “lighthouse” Have we demonstrated hate here?…. That settled, the real issue is what we do hate… We hate a system that presents itself falsly leads kind and loving people away from truth and uses them for personal gain. In the dialogue here, people have been trying to gently and lovingly demonstrate that truth is worth seeking out. I have been to LDS services in the past….My family has been involved in that religion. Very nice, loving atmosphere. Love the sense of community, the support, all the “nice” things they do and they say a lot of nice things, too. It seems very organized, full of people who are professional, intelligent, great leaders and most of what I have heard from the pulpit or as testimony there has made a lot of sense. A nice package from the outside… much like a bear trap. If you are only looking from the outside, then it is all packaged and put together in a very “palatable” way.
The thing I find disturbing is that the two of you don’t seem willing to look any further than the surface at your own faith.
Robert & Caleb.. you both sort of giggled a bit at the way Pastor Greg presented himself to you… (wink)… tisk tisk…. Something you might find interesting. Do you know that he teaches the bible in it’s entirety form the pulpit? Nothing else. If you have ever done that, then you know it is difficult to take things out of context and twist them that way because the bible will validate itself. And most of the people here that you are speaking to know that we study the bible together in it’s entirety, chapter by chapter and verse by verse. Do you also know that in our fellowship, we are encouraged to seek accountability and validation for the things we are taught? Encouraged to study for ourselves, to go look at websites from those who would oppose our beliefs and encouraged to ask questions and to challenge authority and ask for an explanation if we find a discrepancy in those things taught. The reason for this is that truth will stand against ALL scruitiny.
Why do you seem to shy away from validating your faith by addressing the facts? If Joseph Smith, your founder and “proplet” represented truth and fact,then there would be no fear in exposing him, would there? Simply put, LDS doctrines are undeniably based on something false,and will not stand in the face of factual evidence.When I say factual, I am speaking of evidence that is scientific, historical and not biased by a belief system. If you are willing to investigate for yourselves you would have to be blind not to see that. Instead you seem to take someone elses word for it and defend them instead. Or, you take the role of a victim of hate and rally the community behind you. Why not just address it and be done with it.
The u-tube video Jerry pointed out was very well done. The guy is still an active mormon and is trying to sincerely come to some reconciliation between what he has been taught in the church and what he has discovered through CHURCH RESOURCES ( not anti-mormon literature). Why are you so unwilling to do the same? To take it apart and examine it? For heaven sake, wouldn’t you spend more time examining a used car that might cost you half a year’s salary? Or research a vacation spot that will cost you time and money? Isn’t what’s at stake here of much more value and consequence than these things? Eternity is forever. In the bible it talks about the rich man and Lazarus…. the Rich man is still there today.
This is the heart of Lighthouse and others in the Christian community… to be willing to stand publically and like you mentioned, bring more harm than good to our own reputation, take the beating when others are unwilling to risk it financially or with their popularity in the comminity.
Because we believe truth is worth everything it costs. We believe YOU are worth all the damage and fall out and criticism and ridicule from those who just want to let the bear trap have it’s prey and let me have my barbecue and stop all the noise so we can all get along….
Show me…. please, please, please… show me. be willing to watch the u-tube. Take the “anti-mormon” literature as you like to call it and prove it to be incorrect. Examine it…pick it apart point by point. That’s your responsibility to yourself to do. Truth will withstand the scruitney. It will
*applause* Well said, Susan!
Susan,
Sorry, I didn’t read your entire post. I read the first couple paragraphs and then lost interest. I’m sorry you think that the LDS church doesn’t have any defense for its beliefs. What you need to do is get yourself out of the mindset that all the anti-Mormon stuff you read is true. I think I’ve been telling you guys that for a long time now, but I think it falls on deaf ears. Really, it’s detractors of the LDS church who are kicking against the pricks.
The temple will be a great blessing in the lives of latter-day saints. We embrace the Savior and try to live Christlike lives.
Have a great day. By the way, not that it matters, but I have no idea who Caleb is.
Robert:
You’ve made my point painfully clear. I continue to pray.
Until He comes,
Susan
Robert and Caleb,
You can listen to all of Pastor Greg’s sermons on your computer. There is a link on the home page. Check them out, you just might learn some great Bible truths.
Jerry
Sorry Susan,
When I read near the start of your post that you don’t think the LDS church has any defense for its beliefs, you lost me. I didn’t have any reason to read further.
I’ll tell you the spirit was really strong at the youth cultural celebration on Saturday. Wish you had been there. It is my testimony that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God. Jesus Christ restored the church through Joseph Smith. My good brothers and sisters at Lighthouse need to put aside their anti-Mormon(ism) materials and search, ponder and pray for the truth.
Robert,
That’s the difference between you and I, I guess. You have “beliefs” and we have truth. Truth is absolute, and mormonism is far removed from truth.
A very good point, Jennifer. I can stand in front of you holding an apple in my hand and if the people around me told me it is an orange long enough… people that I love and trust, smart, prominent people. My parents, close friends, community leaders. If they somehow convinced me that somewhere down the line something got messed up and a bunch of people started calling oranges apples.. ( but of course, they were wrong…) I guess I could be pursuaded to embrace that what I had in my hand was an orange..
But, I still have an apple.
The truth is the truth, no matter what you believe.
There is a stubbornness that just wants to believe the LDS Faith is true and sadly, truth, investigation, valid facts are simply ignored to embrace what the heart wants to see.
Robert, I perceive you are a stubborn man. You tell me not to believe what you refer to as anti-mormon literature. All I have asked of you repeatedly is to show me why I should discard facts. Because someone had a great time at a party? I don’t mean to be disrespectful but don’t you think that’s a little shallow? I wouldn’t want to base my eternal security upon that, so you’ll have to try a little harder to convince me. This “game” you are playing here… bantering back and forth. While fun and playful, is for keeps, dude.
I am not sure that this discussion is going anywhere.
Ever seen the movie “A Few Good Men”. One very memorable quote from that movie seems to apply here. Jack Nickolson says “You can’t handle the truth.”
All I have seen so far is an attempt to wrest the scriptures and twist the Bible on two of my 18 points of my 8-19-08 posting. Most of the comments have been smoke and mirrors, just like a politician, trying to avoid answering the 18 points that I made, but instead dance around it without really responding.
Concerning the two points that have been responded to.
Bruce’s point #1 comment: A good attempt to twist the truth of what the Bible says. But again the truth speaks louder than a man’s words. Tell me Bruce, regarding Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11, does Lighthouse have current apostles and prophets leading them, like Ephesians 4:13 says we are to have “Till we all come in the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man…”? If not, why not? Truly you do not think that all of the requirements of verse 13 have been completed to date. Are you really following the right path without them? I think without true apostles and prophets the very next verse #14 applies here, being “tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.”
Point 17. Jerry makes another good attempt to wrest what the scriptures actually say and twist or in this case ignore what this verse says. Jerry do you really believe all of the Bible or is this “one verse” something that is convenient for you to skip over, because you are not abiding by it. Your explanation to skip over this verse is very weak and makes me wonder if you have fully read all of Chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians. In 1 Cor. 15:12 Paul says, “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no ressurection of the dead?” Evidently many of these people did no longer believe in the resurrection. Paul then makes point after point to proof the resurrection to these people. One of these proofs that Paul makes to them is in Verse 29, “Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” These Saints in the early Church in Corinth were practicing baptism for the dead. Paul asks them why they are doing baptisms for the dead if there is no resurrection. Driving another point home that there is a resurrection. He did not say there was anything wrong with this practice. Jerry does Lighthouse do baptisms for the dead, like the early Saints did in Corinth? If not, then why is it not doing what the early Church of Jesus Christ did?
Know let me quote you something from the Book of Mormon, Another Witness of Christ. The Book of Mormon is the Stick of Ephraim, for Joseph, spoken of in Ezekiel 37:15-17, and the Bible is the Stick of Judah, for the children of Israel, spoken of in these verses. We follow the command of God in Verse 17 to join them one to another into one stick so that they become one in our hand. So we believe and follow both of these Testaments of Christ, both the Bible and Book of Mormom, equally.
In the Book of Mormom in Moroni 7:16 it says, “For the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”
I testify to you, in the name of Jesus Christ, that the Book of Mormon is the Stick of Joseph and that the Bible is the Stick of Judah spoken of in Ezekiel 37:15-17.
If this is true, if you are an honest seeker of all truth, then I would think that you really would want to know and be using these two Testaments of Christ together, as Ezekiel says in one hand.
I testify that if you will read from cover to cover what the Book of Mormon says then it will do what Moroni says and help you be closer to Jesus Christ, to do good and believe in Him and to serve God, just as the Bible does. I know if you will read the Book of Mormon along with the Bible together as one, with an honest, prayerful heart, that it will bring you closer to God, just as it has me.
I am sure that all of you already have copies of the Bible, but I am sure nearly none of you have the Book of Mormon, Another Witness of Christ. If any of you out there are honest seekers of a closer relationship with Christ then please let me know at my e-mail address and I will get a copy of the Book Of Mormon, Another Witness for Christ, to you.
Caleb
davidsoncaleb@gmail.com
Yet another “seeker” of truth…Honestly, I don’t think Caleb or Robert are even reading our posts. I’ve read many posts where Greg, Jerry, Bruce and some others have talked about these points with you and how you’ve taken the Bible out of context. Yet, you site only two of them.
Also, I’ve read several posts where the question has come up that if Joseph Smith was really a prophet, how come so many of his prophecies did not come to pass? What the Bible calls a false prophet.
So far you’ve both declined to comment. Why is that?
I REFUSE to add a fiction book in with my Bible study. It doesn’t belong there.
And please quit searching for truth. The truth is Christ. Not the mormon version of Christ but the Christ that is God and the Holy Spirit in one. If they were not one, why would John say they are in the first Chapter of his gospel? I could site many other places I’ve found in my personal Bible studies that say that Christ IS God. To deny this means that you deny the Bible.
You search for truth, yet you deny the truth…strange, isn’t it?
wow…. the road to hell is paved with pride….
not only has robert insulted a leader, a pastor….
he has insulted susan by putting up blinders to her words, and thus deaming her not worthy to listen too,
and then to almost insult his mormon brother by throwing out there “he has no idea who he is” loyalty to like minded people is another attribute of lighthouse…. i would not follow the leading of this type of “man”…. prideful, insulting, and condescending tsk tsk..wink wink….
actually that is my point, i would not follow the teaching for my salvation on a sinful man….. the only man, god himself will i put my trust into, and i love others… but we can get to a point where that love has to be removed if it falls on deaf ears….
and my advice robert, find somewhere else to be insulting…. unless you can handle yourself with kindness and love, as you have been dealt by my fellow lighthouse brothers and sisters…. i may not know them deeply and profoundly, but i know there hearts and would stand by them no matter what.
in loyalty, love, and compassion,
heidi
It’s great that Heidi is so concerned about not insulting others (can I put a ‘wink’ here?).
I agree with Caleb (and I still insist I don’t know his identity and don’t mean to insult by saying such) that this conversation about religion isn’t getting very far. Maybe, just maybe, Pastor Greg (who I might have insulted by questioning his authority) would agree that religion can be a touchy subject and contention about religion doesn’t necessarily bring about change.
I personally think that if Lighthouse wanted to show members of the LDS church that they had the correct beliefs they would do so by doing something that uplifts and inspires. Instead, I just get a sour taste in my mouth whenever I hear the words “Lighthouse Christian.” Sorry, that’s just how I feel.
Hey, I saw that Wikipedia has an entry titled “Mormonism vs. Christianity.” I think it does a pretty objective job at explaining some differences between the LDS church and “traditional” Christianity. At least it’s not what I call anti-Mormon literature.
As I said before, my testimony The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is exactly that — the Savior stands at the head. I don’t just say that because I went to some “party,” as Susan said. I put my trust in God.
That’s funny, because I’ve seen that Mormonism vs. Christianity thing, and it says all the same stuff that we’ve been talking about. Why is it that you argue about it when we say it, but agree with it when Wikipedia says it?
Also, I totally agree with you, Robert, that talking about religion will get us nowhere…but the only religion we’re talking about is yours. Ours is not a religion at all. I know that’s hard for religious people to understand, but read what the Bible has to say about “religious” people. Our only goal is to love the Lord our God with all our heart and to love others as ourselves. That’s why we keep talking and arguing this topic, Robert. Because we care.
In Christ,
Jennifer
robert, wink wink,
if you actually read my comment, the first one… i was actually defending you somewhat for really believing and taking a stand…. but then you fullfilled the rest of my first comment, by being insulting…. who is right and who is wrong is your main objective… not salvation, because if you were worried about our salvation, you wouldnt be so condescending…
and also, you really know nothing about lighthouse if you dont think anything happens that uplifts and inspires!! how can you honestly say that when you have never set foot in our church… you are basing your opinion on what other mormons have told you… when our comments are not personally motivated, but based on the mormon history and theology, not one ward that is being attacked…..
you came here, you asked questions, and you got answers, not what you wanted, but answers…
you can set medicine beside a sick patient, and it wont help them get better, they have to pick it up and ingest it to have it heal… that is my analogy…
love and compassion need to rule… and pastor greg, susan, jennifer just want you to LISTEN and make up your mind….. if you were so sure of what you have been taught why are you not wanting the same for us? you want to be right, not for us to be mormons… that is the difference between us and you… we dont want you to be a lighthouse pew potato, we want you in a salvation relationship with the real lord and savior.. i also can feel that you are being prayed for by alot of people,
i smile because i know jesus is in persuit of robert! and caleb, and anyone else who reads these comments and blogs!
let him catch you! its the best love affair anyone can hope for!
dear heavenly father,
i pray right now for wisdom and guidance for robert and caleb…. they are men that are taking a stand for something they feel worthy of their lives… i pray that you will show your glory, show your face, and let them have a moment of clarification, to know all this stuff is really not the point, that you are!!! we love you lord and forgive us for any hurts we have caused, we are a humble people that want more to see your goodness. robert needs you, and he needs intervention, he needs compassion and he needs love… he is hurting i can hear it, something deep is happening and he is hurting…
you know what he needs, and i pray for ultimate salvation on his behalf… and caleb, such a beautiful name of the bible, strong courageous caleb, give him salvation and characteristics such as his name sake… we stand before you and know you shake your head at our foolishness… you know what these two need, let it be done!
in jesus name, amen
until next time
heidi
Jennifer, you are just getting into semantics on your “religion” comments. What do you say when someone asks you what your religion is?
And about the Wikipedia entry, I don’t recall reading anything on that site about Joseph Smith being a false prophet, etc. I was just saying that it outlines various beliefs. And I hope you understand what I mean when I say “traditional” Christianity. “Traditional” Christianity might not be a good thing.
Lord Jesus,
I too lift up Robert and Caleb as I have been… you know them, Lord, you are the creator of the heart and you can speak to them in a way no one else can. I pray specifically for Robert, that you would whisper your love to him. That you would speak to him in the quietness of his inner man, the place that is private and closed to everyone but you. Will you cause him to consider these things, and birth in him a deep desire to know, to partake of and embrace the truth of who you are?
Thank you for your faithfulness, Lord. You are amazing, your love is true and your grace is sufficient.
For Caleb, I pray Lord that you would meet him at his point of faith and begin there to cause unrest with the things we’ve spoken here. Will you stir his heart and not allow him to rest until he has stepped out courageously to seek to know you? Please send your Holy Spirit to do that amazing work in these two. Thank you, Thank you, Lord.
Amen!!
I appreciate your prayers in my behave. I have also prayed for you in the name of Jesus Christ, that your hearts will be softened enough that you will at least honestly consider the 18 points from the Bible that I listed on my 8-19-08 blog posting. I appreciate the honesty of those of you that have reached out and requested a copy of the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Christ, to see for yourself if reading this book will help you to draw closer to Christ and strive more to do good and love others, just as reading the Bible does. If you see the fruits of this book, that it brings one closer to God, then I know you will know that it is good, where it leads one closer to Christ and in doing good and showing love to others. May God bless you with the feelings of the Holy Spirit. Those warm feelings of the Spirit that leads you to be born again and a new creature in Christ Jesus, to put off the natural man. With no more desire in your heart to do bad, but to do good ontinually, and to follow the Saviour and to be loving and giving to others. I pray that you might feel that same warmth of the Spirit that I recognize right now as I write.
Caleb
E-mail: davidsoncaleb@gmail.com
Caleb:
I hear your heart my friend, and I am so filled with a desire to show you… In Jeremiah 17:9 the bible tells me that the heart is desperately wicked and sick. It will lie to me. What pastor greg tried to tell you, what heidi and jennifer and bruce and jerry have tried to tell you is that you cannot base your eternity on feelings. My heart will only guide me in the truth of the Lord when it is surrendered and yielded to the Holy Spirit. If I rely on feelings, I will make mistakes. I can be deceived.. the bible says my own heart will deceive me. Yours has deceived you, my friend. As for your 18 points. … I’ll sit down with them tonight and I will have answers for you.
Blessings
Robert,
When people ask me what religion I am, I tell them I don’t believe in religion…then I outline for them what I do believe. It’s a great lead in for evangelism. I love that question.
Caleb,
Here’s a quote from your above post: “…to see for yourself if reading this book will help you to draw closer to Christ and strive more to do good and love others, just as reading the Bible does.”
The object of the Bible is NOT so we’ll strive to do good. Christ himself said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. If the Book of Mormon’s only purpose is to make people feel warm and fuzzy and cause them to do “good” then God help you all. The Bible says “there is none righteous, no not one.” No one is “good,” and without salvation no one does good on his own. The Bible leads us to have a relationship with Christ period. Some may be lead to do good to others because Christ leads them there, but the main purpose of the Bible is to show mankind how badly he messed and and to teach us how Christ paid the penalty for our sins.
Also, in your past posts you’ve mentioned the Holy Spirit a lot…but always as a feeling. Well, the Bible says we can’t trust our feelings, because it says our hearts are wicked. How do you know when the Holy Spirit is present? Do you feel it? Sometimes, sometimes not. Trust me, it’s not always warm and fuzzy. If you disagree, then you’ve never felt conviction. The Bible says where two or three are gathered together in His name, then He’ll be in the midst. When I’m in a group discussion about how awesome God is, I don’t always feel His presence, but I trust it’s there, because I trust the Bible.
You know how else I know the Holy Spirit is present. Because I’m a believer…He’s always present. But sometimes I hear the still small voice. It’s not a feeling, but an actual conversation with Him.
And Caleb, I might take a stab at those 18 points if you’d answer at least one of my questions. Like how you can say that Joseph Smith is a prophet when sooooo many of his prophecies were false? Answer that, and I’ll try to tackle your previous question. Or how you explain the DNA evidence which proves the Book Of Mormon is false??
Here’s another comparison between Christianity and Mormonism I found. If you disagree, then the burden of proof is with you…because our proof is the Bible.
http://contenderministries.org/mormonism/comparison.php
Grrr. I had a typo in the 3rd paragraph two posts ago. It’s supposed to say “how badly WE messed up.” I’m sure there are probably other typos, I was writing in a hurry because I was about to burn dinner.
im still praying….
Me too
Me too….
I’m joining the prayer circle.
Me too.
I might add that there have been about 4,000 changes to the Book of Mormon since it was first published in 1830. Let’s see 4,000 divided by 178 = 22.5. So since the LDS church started an average of 22.5 changes have been made per year. The most recent being in the introduction where it was changed from “the Lamanites are the PRINCIPLE ancestors of the American Indians” to “the Lamanites are AMONG the ancestors of the American Indians”. That “DNA vs the Book of Mormon” video
http://www.lhvm.org/vid_dna_med.htm
had some real effect, enough that they had to change the Book of Mormon, and to quit telling native Americans that they are Lamanites.
Below is a link to a “machine” where you can read side-by-side the 1830 addition compared to today’s addition of the Book of Mormon.
http://www.mazeministry.com/machine/index.htm
So if you are e-mailing Caleb for a copy of the Book of Mormon, you might want to have him send you the original 1830 edition. After all, Joseph Smith said it was “the most correct book ever written”. Or maybe we should change that to “the most corrected book ever written”.
Jerry
Lord, help Robert and Caleb deal with the spirit of contention that keeps them from hearing your word spoken to them in love. Thank you Lord that they are willing to dialog with us and continue to search for the substance of their faith. Help them to know Lord that there is evidence for the things that are hoped for and that it is not based on feelings as it speaks of in Proverbs 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Help them to trust in you Lord and you alone.
Evidently the statement made by Jay earlier that the Spirit is alive and well at Lighthouse must not be a true statement, if you can’t recognize what it means to be born again, don’t recognize the Spirit and I can tell from your statements that you don’t know how to recognize the Spirit and deny that Spirit as you have 2 or 3 gathered together studying scripture.
Please read this passage from the Bible, perhaps it will be of help to you in the future, as you seek to know the truth through the Spirit. Read Luke 24:13-35, please note verse 32 which reads, “And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?”
If you are not having spiritual experiences like the Apostles describe then perhaps it is time for you to move on where you do have Spiritual experiences like the Apostles of old and where you can truly receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and recognize what it means to be born again.
You see I am firm in the faith and have had many, many experiences with the Spirit to the point that I have no doubt, and do recognize what it means to be Born Again. I pray for all of you that you can have this same experience, as it will be a great guide and strength in your life and totally make you a new creature in Christ as you put off the natural man.
I pray for you all that your hearts, which appear to be dead to the Spirit, will be softened and opened to receive the Spirit, in due time.
Caleb
caleb, my dear caleb,
dead to the spirit? ummmm the fact that we (me, susan, jennifer, greg, bruce), are all praying for you is a manifestation of two or more gathered together,( maybe online ), showing the spirit is alive, within us… it is a very bold statement to say i, and others do not have the holy spirit, that it is dead…. be very very careful because you are reaching territory that is treacherous… and to throw another scripture, to back it up, at you would be futile, at this point.
dear lord,
owner and giver of the holy spirit, i confess anger, towards these men… i confess doubt and apathy this morning, please change my heart and help to know you are patient and trustworthy to finish the goal, i again turn to you to help them see, peel the scales away that cause them to make these statements and i pray they are not close to blaspheming the holy spirit, help them to have the soft hearts, and help them to just stop and listen, to step out and WANT to hear, and to see.
i know lord, this is a worthy place to be, to helping, loving, caring for these men… but humbleness needs to abound… do what you have to break them, show them, you are the reason, not mormonism, not christianity, not any religion… its you, the true you, god of all, not the brother of lucifer, not a mere man, a “good” teacher”….YOU, worthy because of the sacrifice we take for granted everyday…. you are the true reason to live…thank you lord for being in my life, thank you for the holy spirit, and the baptism of it eight years ago when we ventured to jerome to help start a church… thank you for reaffirming in my heart who you are and what you mean to our small little place on this earth…
in jesus name, amen
Okay, so let’s not only twist scripture, lets twist my words. Seriously, Caleb, if you’re not here out of genuine curiosity of how to be a real Christian, but are only wanting to pick fights, then you’re wasting your time. I pray someday you realize how evil mormonism really is.
Oh, Jennifer,
Will you ever learn? It seems like double standards are the norm for some people.
I sure you hope you saw a difference between the Wikipedia entry on Mormonism and “traditional” Christianity and what was on the Web site you directed us to recently. I’m not going to reply to all those things but here are a couple Web sites that I’ve posted in the past but I think they are still applicable. Believe it not, one of the sites isn’t even from a member of the LDS church!
http://www.jimfeeney.org/apostlesandprophets.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml
In Christ’s love …
Wow! ‘how evil mormonism really is’. I think that clarifies your true feelings!
I was a member of a ‘traditional christian’ church for many years and saw so much nonsense going on with the members there that it made me sad. Reading your blogs does the same.
I don’t think there is any church that is 100% correct in their beliefs. Wouldn’t it be nice if all churches could just work together and accept one another? Any spend more time on themselves and their works rather than on trying to bring down another?
Lighthouse was involved in distributing “DNA vs the Book of Mormon” in the Magic Valley a few years back. Below is a link to a letter posted on the Lighthouse website at the time of this distribution. I also copied a section dealing with how the LDS do tear down other people’s religions. I think it was well stated then and still applies today.
http://archives.lighthousecf.org/dna/
“Well, okay, if we go by your definition of ‘Christian’…but at least we Mormons don’t go around tearing down other peoples’ religions.”
Is that really true? Let us turn the original question about whether or not we are “anti-Mormon” around: Is Mormonism anti-Christian? We could make a very good argument for this.
The Book of Mormon speaks of the great and “abominable” church (1 Nephi 13; 1 Nephi 22, among others). This has historically referred to the Protestant and Catholic churches, in spite of more recent efforts to tone down such language.
“All Christian churches are wrong, all their creeds are an abomination before God, and all people who profess those beliefs are corrupt.” (Joseph Smith, Pearl of Great Price, J.S. History 1:19)
Is it any wonder that biblical Christians find LDS teachings and scriptures offensive? Or how about the following:
“Christians are ripening for the damnation of Hell.” (Teachings of Joseph Smith, 298)
“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the whore of Babylon.” (Brigham Young, J.O.D. 16:46, and Orson Pratt, The Seer, 255)
“The God of Christianity is but an idol and a loathsome, filthy, debauched, degraded monster.” (John Taylor, J.O.D. 6:167)
Such quotes—from the mouths and pens of LDS Church leaders—do not appear to be simply hard words spoken in love, but rather mean-spirited and contentious.
Susie “Q”
please don’t confuse mormonism with mormons. Jennifer was not making a personal indictment. I stated the same thing when I said that what we hate is a system that lies to good people, leads them to believe something that isn’t true and uses them for gain.
If we didn’t care about what happens to people, we’d all take our marbles and go home.
Exactly right, Susan. I never said that any individual was evil. I also disagree with your comment about us all making peace and doing what we can to get along. To say that no religion has everything 100% right, is correct. However, (and I’ve said this before, so listen this time) True Christianity is NOT a religion! To say we don’t have it right is to say that you don’t believe the Bible. And if you don’t believe the Bible, then what are you doing quibbling about the small stuff? Seems like you have bigger issues to deal with between you and the Lord.
Christ did not come to this earth to bring peace, as such He does not want us to simply make peace with the Mormons and let them “work” their way into hell. Why? Because He gave us love and compassion toward them. If you had a relative that was a drug addict, would you sit by and let them waste away because you didn’t want to cause problems?? I would hope not.
Anyway, like Susan I’m not ready to take my marbles home. I’m still praying, and I believe that God’s word will not return void.
Caleb, if you believe all the Bible, how do you deal with this passage. Jesus said “they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.” NO MARRIAGE IN HEAVEN!! How are you going to become a god and populate your own world with all your goddess wives if marriage for time and eternity isn’t going to happen?
Matthew 22
23The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27And last of all the woman died also.
28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Jennifer,
I can understand your frustration as you attempt to share your heart and it seems that all you say falls on deaf ears. I had a friend tell me one time that trying to understand what Mormons believe is like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall. Evil takes many forms and it seems that some of the most effective tools of Lucifer are deception and discouragement. Please do not feel like what you are sharing only falls on deaf ears. Please be encouraged and read Isaiah 55:8-13 with a focus on verse 11; So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Keep praying, keep sharing and keep relying on Gods word.
Keith Walker of Evidence Ministries out of San Antonio, Texas spoke this year at Ephriam Church of the Bible. It is part of the training for the Christian outreach to the LDS at the Mormon Miracle Pageant, in Manti, Utah. Several of us from Lighthouse have gone down and gone through the training and learned by street witnessing at the Pageant. Here is an excellent teaching session by Keith. It is well worth your time to watch it. Make sure that you watch it all the way through to the end.
http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/video/mormonisms-impossible-gospel
Caleb,
Thank you for sharing your heart and thank you for your commitment to keep digging in to Gods word. I have no doubt from reading your posts that you are very sincere in what you believe. If you will bear with me for a while, I would like to relay a story told to me by a friend.
There was a fire in a house in Houston, Texas that was being shown on the news. The entire house was engulfed in flames and the fire department was attempting to put it out. A car came screeching to a halt in front of the home and a woman jumped out screaming, “MY BABY, MY BABY”! The fireman grabbed her as she attempted to run into the burning building to save her baby. The woman was frantic and yelling that she had only left for a moment to buy some more diapers and that her baby was inside sleeping. The fireman told her to tell him where the baby’s crib was as he buckled up his suit and adjusted his mask. He then ran into the burning building as all of the bystanders waited by, breathless. Soon he burst through the flames of the front door and placed the baby, wrapped in a blanket, in the mothers’ arms and the crowd burst into cheering and applause. Just at that moment, the building collapsed. Then came a blood-curdling scream as the mother unwrapped her baby to find that the Fireman had brought out the baby’s doll.
The Fireman was sincere in his attempt to save the baby but he was sincerely wrong because he reached for the wrong thing. The truth was not revealed until it was unwrapped.
Our prayer is that you will continue digging into the truth of Gods word and not to be deceived by the distractions of the enemies lies. Truth does not change and does not need to be corrected. There are nearly 4000 changes to the Book of Mormon, which makes me say Hmmm. In 1841 Joseph Smith declared that the Book of Mormon was “the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 194). So why so many changes?
This also brings us back to the question asked by Pastor Greg, “explain what appears to be plagiarism in the Book of Mormon and the immorality (polygamy/false prophecies) of Joseph Smith-the founder of your religion.”
Jerry,
Thanks for posting the video. It was long, but I watched it all. Fantastic! I’m always looking for new ways to talk with the mormons. My sister is LDS and I would really like to see her get out of the church one day. Anyway, thanks a bunch!
http://blog.mrm.org/2008/08/adams-road/
Former LDS youth that have become Christians. Great testimonies.
Jerry
Caleb:
I had begun answering your questions but as I was writing out my answers, I kept being reminded of the same point that was made in a very recent teaching at church by pastor g. In fact…. when I went down the list, many of your questions are answered in the most recent teaching from the book of Jude. If you look at recent teachings on the home page of this website you will find the first one at the bottom of that list, Jude 1-4 and from there, it lines it all out for you. You might be interested to know that your church plays a starring role in the teaching. I think pastor g even makes reference to you two boys visiting the blog.
But…. I will say this for question 1. You ask if Lighthouse follows these things you feel have been established to organize the church…. I have to say Lighthouse follows what was established by God for the first church in the book of ACTS ch2: v42. And they continued steadfast in the apostles doctrine, in fellowship and the breaking of bread and to prayer. The scriptures you quoted while honorable, have to do with gifting,and empowering not establishing the structure of the church. Again, if you will read both books in their entirety, you will see.
I hope you will take time to listen on line to the teaching. You can download the messages if you like. They will give you all of the information you are looking for. If that is what you really want. I think I can safely say that pastor g’s teaching will be much more dynamic and interesting than reading another dissertation from me anyway. If you still have questions about our fellowship, what we believe and why our position with mormonism is such after you listen to these, I will be glad to answer more questions for you. So will any of your new friends here.
Blessings
I originally came to this blog after I saw Pastor Fadness and 4 or 5 other Lighthouse Pastors edititorial in the Times News. He said that LDS doctrine did not follow the Bible and implied in the write up that Lighthouse followed the Bible completely. From my personal study of the Bible I knew that was not the truth and that Bible doctine is the doctrine purely taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (CJCLDS) and that the reverse was true regarding Lighthouse doctrine, as has been illustrated by our blog discussion.
On 8-19-08 I posted 18 points of Bible teachings/doctrines and asked you to read the Bible references and respond to each one individually, as to whether Lighthouse was following each of the 18 Bible teachings/doctrines today. Pastor Fadness said at first that he was going to respond to each and every one but then did not and then later said that he was not going to respond to them. Two other people responded to two of the points, but I refuted both of their comments soundly through the Bible. Since then there has been no one respond to the 18 Bible teachings. The fact that your Pastors have been unable or have not been willing to respond to these 18 points of Bible doctrine certainly does make me go “Hmmmm” and should give you pause. I am sure that Lighthouse follows a few of these Bible taught doctrines, but not many. So what can be learned from this, well I guess Lighthouse doctrine is not following Bible taught doctrine, after all is said and done, as completely as you claim.
I don’t think that this discussion is going any where. I have pointed out to you pure Bible doctrines that I don’t believe that you want to abide by, for some reason, but instead turn your back on them but then say that you follow every teaching of the Bible. Primarily, I have been given point after point from many of you from Anti-Mormon sources, that mainly are excommunicated members of the CJCLDS, that are disgruntled for having been excommunicated from the church for serious offenses, on a road to their repentance. If that’s the source that you want to believe rather than the Bible’s truth, then so be it.
I am sorry that I seem to have stirred some of you up to anger. I was mainly pointing out to you that you are really not following the Bible teachings as fully as you think. If discovering that upsets you, then I hope that you will study the scripture references that I gave you and ponder and pray upon them and what they mean and in due time you will forgive me.
I will say so long to you all, so that you can continue to quote Anti-Mormon sources back and forth amongst yourself without anyone refuting your unfounded claims any longer.
I’ll continue to pray in the name of Jesus Christ for the softening of your soul through the Sprit.
Caleb
E-mail: davidsoncaleb@gmail.com
Like I said before, Caleb. I’ll answer EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR 18 POINTS, if you’d please answer the questions that we’ve asked you. But you just seem to ignore our questions, at least some of us answered yours.
My heart breaks for you, Caleb. I too will continue to pray for you.
We will study the scriptures you pointed out and all the ones before that and after that until we have read the entire bible. Then we will start over again. We will lay hands upon each other and pray for the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, we will share communion and we will have fellowship with one another. And we will continue to reach out….
And I am sure that at least for me, I will never forget you. I will pray for you each time I drive past the LDS temple and I will pray for you at night as I lay down my head to sleep. I will pray for you when the blog discussion comes up while I am at work…. I will pray, and pray again and again until He comes.
ok caleb i know you will be back even though you said it was done for you… you will be curious:
does lighthouse follow your 18 rules? that was your question… your rules… morman rules? or your rules?… lets see….
1. Ephesians 4:11-14… yes
1 Corinthians 12:27-29)….yes
2. Ephesians 4:11-14… yes same as above
3. Acts 3:19-21…. yes
Matt 17:11-15…11 And He answered and said, “Elijah is coming and will restore all things;
12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also (A)the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”
13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
The Demoniac
14(B)When they came to the crowd, a man came up to Jesus, falling on his knees before Him and saying,
15″Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is a (C)lunatic and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water.
confused to your point of our church acting a certain way…… n/a
4. Ephesians 3:21:21(A)to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen….. no… the church will not bear the name it will be IN christ jesus..
Acts 4:12. And there is salvation in (A)no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”… again no… we are saved in his name has nothing to do with the church have the name in it.
5. Proverbs 29:18…Where there is (A)no vision, the people (B)are unrestrained, But (C)happy is he who keeps the law…..not a scripture backing up how church is run for ‘revelation’
Amos 3:7… this one lighthouse follows… and i can see where you are coming from with revelation..
6. Hebrews 5:4 …yes
Exodus 40:13-16…. old testament priesthood, do you honestly think your church follows every rule from old tetament time? we live in jesus priesthood now acts is the maifestation for for preists and priesthood
7. 1 Corinthians 9:18 …. i have never gotten a bill from my pastor regarding his fees for preaching… on the other hand dont mormans send out tithe bills to your people?
1 Peter 5:1-3…has nothing in it about having a paid ministry… again n/a
8. Ephesians 2:19-20… yes this is the point i was making in question 6… yes lighthouse adheres to this
9. 2 Tim. 4:12 …yes … you should go to russia, or vietnam… or as my family to jerome, and others to boise, fairfiels, elko.etc..etc…
Matt. 28:19-20… again yes..
10. John 15:16…yes
Hebrews 5:4-12…yes… and you should really take this one to heart about your own church!
11. Mark 16:17-18 …yes… ive seen it!
James 5:14-16…yes
12. Gen. 1:26-27 … trinity..yes
Luke 24:36-39… yes this is taught..duh.
13. yes distinct individuals.. trinity.. father , son, holy spirit… taught!
14. 2 Tim. 1:6-7…yes.. experienced it there
Acts 8:16-17…yes
15. 1 Corintians 14:33 ..yes havent seen a fight once break out!!
Ephesians 4:12… yes
16. Matt 3:13-16 ..yes all the time
John 3:23…again yes
17. 1 Corintians 15:29 ..not as you do in your church you have taken in a context that someone can save someone else… jesus is the only savior…
Hebrews 11:39-40) These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. …no…has nothing to say about baptising the dead… sorry taking scripture and twisting it.
18. Heb. 11:1… faith, duh
John 20:29…yes
Mark 9:23.. belief…yes
Matt 6:33
and on and on… pastor greg teaches these passages… verse by verse chapter by chapter… oh except for the verses that arent in the bible that you listed…
so caleb my challenge to you is why was there no scripture on accepting jesus as god, as savior? who is he to you? a good teacher, or your savior?… and give me details on how you view him… through your added books… descibe him to me… lucifer’s brother? your jesus is different than mine… your books teach that… the bible does not… so please knock my pastor and my church all you want, but know you have contradicted yourself in these passages as i pointed out…
im still praying….
my last post….2nd to last paragraph shouldnt say “oh except for the verses that arent in the bible that you listed… caleb spelled corinthians wrong… i copied and pasted the scripture, found the ones that were spelled correct responded, went back and relooked at those that “werent found” and realized spelling was the issue… so this is my disclaimer… caleb used all scripture, i am sorry caleb i ment to erase that sentence…
Well, maybe nobody wants to hear my opinion (my last post never made it on for some reason) but my feelings, as stated before, are that scriptures can be interpreted many different ways. You can’t “prove” a lot of doctrines simply because of different interpretations.
You have to rely on the Spirit of God to guide you to what’s right. I have a strong testimony that the gospel has been restored through a prophet of God.
Also, look at a church’s “fruits.” Jerry, as I recall Lighthouse’s anti-Mormon(ism) video distribution, Lighthouse also helped organize an anti-Mormon(ism) meeting at the Roper Auditorium. The same night at this meeting, the LDS church had organized a meeting to help parents build stronger families. To me, this is a great contrast between the two churches. One seems to like to tear down, the other likes to build up.
The Lighthouse bunch will keep doing what they’re doing, but good members of the LDS church will keep doing our best to keep the commandments and living Christlike lives.
By the way, some comments say the church has nothing to do whether we get to heaven or not. I agree that just coming to church won’t make you any more of a Christian than sleeping in a garage will transform you into a car. But saving ordinances such as baptism must be performed by the proper authority. This authority has been restored through heavenly beings.
In Christ’s love …
Robert,
You said “But saving ordinances such as baptism must be performed by the proper authority. This authority has been restored through heavenly beings.”
“Authority” seems to be an important subject for you. Why?
Good Morning all, with the faith of a mustard seed, and in the knowledge that I am among the least of all who have posted, I would like to tell my story.
I grew up in a loving family and was blessed to attend an Episcopalian School from K thru 6th grades. As a student, altar boy, and regular church attender, my folks provided a healthy environment for me and my younger brother to grow up in.
But my world fell apart when my parents divorced at age 11. My mom remarried, and we moved to a rural, predominantly LDS town where I completed 7th thru 12th grade. My family ended all church attendance, and Christ was not a part of our lives.
During High School, I must have sat through the Missionary Lessons 5 or 6 times, attended LDS church dances and special meetings (missionary send offs and returns, etc.) and even Seminary one year during a free period. My best friends, all the other players on my sports teams, and all my teachers (save maybe 2 or 3 in six years) were LDS.
When I joined the military and left home clear across the country, it wasn’t my family that I missed so much, as it was the families and friends that I left behind. I was homesick for that feeling of belonging. So I began attending the LDS church to get a sense of belonging, and was baptized into the LDS church by my best friend before he left for his mission to Japan.
I so wanted to be like the families I knew. I saw a lot of myself in the Joseph Smith story, and developed a testimony of it. I attended and served and fellowshipped for the next six years. I advanced through the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods, to High Priest and 2nd Counselor in the Bishopric.
I married in the Temple, yet could not be sealed because my wife had an ex-husband to whom she was still sealed. My folks waited outside.
I was at the top of the world, in church, in family, in career. And yet, I was (and am) a sinner. I committed adultery, and in confession to my family and church, was divorced and excommunicated.
I have heard it said that the Christian Army is the only one that kills their own wounded. Well, my experience is that the LDS church chews up and spits out theirs. I tried to follow the path that the Stake President outlined for my repentance and future restoration to the church, only to be shunned at every turn.
As I write this I fear that perhaps this is the wrong forum for a confession such as this – but only recently I have found myself wanting to reach out to the LDS people in Christian love.
Jennifer, my brother and his family are also LDS – and I pray that you are successful in your outreach to your sister.
Robert and Caleb, and any other LDS members who might read this, I have lived for 15 years defending how your church treated me, how members treated me, and hoping that you were indeed covered by the Blood of the Lamb, our Savior Jesus Christ. Now I recognize it was a false hope, as if my love for my brother and my friends could have be sufficient for them to be saved. It is only through Christ we are saved. And let me tell you from experience, it is NOT after all we can do.
Pastor Greg, thank you for your leadership. Fellow Lighthouse attenders, thank you for your example. Please pray for my family that we might remain steadfast in Christ.
Lord forgive my pride and unbelief. In Jesus’ Name – Amen
Jerry,
Why is authority important? I think you know the answer. God is not a God of confusion.
John 15:16
John,
I’m sorry about your experience. I hope you expressed your feelings to church authorities so they knew your thoughts. Again, I am very sorry. I know you can come back into the church. I’ll pray for ya (smile). I think it’s good that you want to reach out to Mormons in love. I think members of the LDS church and other churches should show true love to one another, even if they have different religious beliefs.
By the way, I think the right way to reach out to someone in true love is not by picketing their temple (wink).
Robert,
Saying that all members of this particular church or all Christians picket mormon temples. That’s like saying that all mormons are Warren Jeffs followers. I cringe at the sight of the temple, that’s for sure. My husband and I joke about doing a drive by with a paint gun. We would never do it of course, but I have better things to do than picket.
And John, thank you so much for posting! I think the LDS community needs to hear more testimony from someone who used to be a member of the church. They don’t seem to believe us for some reason ;-)
John,
Keep enjoying the love and favor of God brother! Your testimony is powerful and needs to be shared. This is a great forum for you to make your confession. It is the Holy Spirit Who now gives you a desire and a burden for the LDS. Spread your wings and catch the updraft….
Until He comes,
greg
Robert,
Below are parts of three posts that you have made.
“Jerry,
Why is authority important? I think you know the answer. God is not a God of confusion.”
“But saving ordinances such as baptism must be performed by the proper authority. This authority has been restored through heavenly beings.”
“As far as I’m concerned, you don’t have ANY authority from God to be running a church. Sure, you might have gone to minister school for a while and learned some verses from the Bible, but that doesn’t give you a bit of authority.”
You may think that I know the answer, but you have not answered the question. All of your quotes about mention authority, yet you will not comment on why authority is so important to YOU. So again I ask you why is AUTHORITY so important to you? Are you the only one who has AUTHORITY? You don’t think anyone outside of the LDS church has any AUTHORITY? AUTHORITY in what? AUTHORITY to do what? What is this AUTHORITY that you are talking about? Where does your AUTHORITY come from?
Adam’s Road
Band follows a new road for former LDS missionaries (with audio)
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
Micah Wilder found Jesus as a Mormon missionary in Orlando, Fla., and the experience led him out of the church that sent him.
Wilder’s awakening began with an evangelical minister’s challenge to read the Bible more closely, noting discrepancies between the ancient text and Mormon beliefs. The young missionary pored over the scriptures to prove the man wrong, he says, but instead found himself discovering a different Jesus than the one he had known as a Latter-day Saint.
“I learned that salvation came through the gift and grace of God, not by our works. I learned that believing in Christ was enough. . . . I learned that the priesthood, temples, ordinances and prophets were
Adam’s Road
Listen to Crazy About Me (mp3)
all fulfilled through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ,” he says in a written testimony. “God reached into my heart and changed everything I had ever known.”
Wilder shared his newfound faith with fellow LDS missionaries Joseph Warren and Steve Kay, Mormon convert Jay Graham, and his brother Matt, who had just returned from a mission to Denmark. They all had a “born again” experience and gave up membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Three years later, Wilder and the other four have formed a Christian band, Adam’s Road, which is performing in Utah this week. The name refers to the biblical Adam as representing the path all people must take to return to God through Jesus.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10275706?IADID
Adam’s Road interviewed on “Heart of the Matter” link below.
http://www.hotm.tv/shows/20080819.htm
And on “Mormon Coffee Blog”.
http://blog.mrm.org/2008/08/adams-road/
John,
Thank you so much for sharing your testimony with us. I have found that the trials and tribulations we go through make us who we are today. I would love to hear of when you surrendered to Christ and received Him into your life. I know that all the experiences that have brought you to the point of surrender will be an encouragement to someone else that may be going through just what you also have endured.
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope: And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Romans 5:1-5
God bless you my brother and thank you for the encouragement!
~Bruce
john
thank you… you will have a HUGE ministry!! but i understand your feelings of needing prayer for steadfastness… even christians can inflict shunning… i know from experience.. the last two years have been my family and i, digging around the rubble trying to find the foundation that we know god started in us… we are finding it… and i have had moments of my knees knocking with wondering where god is…. that is when he sends a former friend with scripture to my door, or a phone call out of the blue, and the most important… christ’s small whisper and huge shove to move forward… i thank him for his faithfulness… i thank him for his faithfulness in your life….
thank you for your candidness….
there is no perfect church, just a perfect savior!
heidi
p.s. mr jed…. how many comments can each blog actually hold… *smile* its a small curiousity ive been monitering on this thing!
John: If you are who I think you are, I have an amazing story to tell you.
I have a dear sister in Christ, who after many years of sitting on the fence, gave herself fully over to Jesus. I had been praying for such a thing to happen for a very long time. We used to work together in an accounting firm. After she re-dedicated her heart to Jesus. Jan and I shared many wonderful times, praying together at work, at lunch we would occasionally share communion in the conference room together and spend our hour long lunch in prayer by candlelight there in this tiny sanctuary that God honored. During the last tax conference we went to in Boise, we began praying for brokenness and that we would give our hearts, our practices and our livlihood over to God. We began praying for the people we knew, the IT technitian, the other partners in the firm, one of which is LDS. The night went by and before we knew it, it was past 4:00am. We also prayed for you that night, John. We knew there was some sort of trouble in your marriage and prayed that God would use those circumstances to draw you to out of mormonism and into a relationship with Jesus. We commited to continue on prayong for those that God had directed us to pray for. And we did.
Are you the John Martin I know? If you are, then I am so very, very blessed to see you here on this blog…..and by the testimony you have shared.. in fact, I am beside myself with awe at God’s amazing love and faithfulness. If you’re not.. I am still very, very blessed….
Thank you for your testimony.
In Christ’s Love,
Susan Hatch
Jerry, to me, authority to preach the gospel and perform gospel ordinances is very important.
Let’s just say I went down to Joe’s Angelic Ministry Church on the corner and some guy threw some water on me and said I was baptised. Would that baptism be recordered in heaven as having been done by the proper authority? I don’t think so …
Read Acts 19:2-6 for some more info.
Where does authority to perform these ordinances come from? God, of course.
Pull out your trusty Joseph Smith-History to read more about John the Baptist and Peter, James and John restoring the priesthood to Joseph Smith.
Susan, thank you for your story, though I may not be the John Martin you once knew – unless your prayers were being sent down to Southern California in 1994.
I know that the prayers of others in my (and my family’s) behalf have been answered continually, even as I continue to stumble through life.
Thank you Robert for your apology – your empathy blesses me. Pastor Greg thank you for your affirming comments. Jennifer, Heidi, Susan and Bruce – You’re all awesome, and that’s all I have to say about that. May God continue to answer your prayers.
Bless you, John….
Thanks again for your testimony and for your kind words.
Robert,
So if you were to do a baptism for someone, would it be recorded in heaven?
Robert,
When Pastor Greg baptizes someone, is that baptism recorded in heaven?
Well, I guess Robert isn’t going to answer the question. I was baptized back in 1977. It was at an Evangelical Free Church in Kingsburg, Ca. by Pastor Keith Lundberg. I was dunked the whole way. Do I think that my baptism was recorded in heaven. Yep, I sure do. By the way, I was also baptized as an infant (sprinkled) at the church my parents and grandparents went to in Fowler, Ca. It was a United Presbyterian Church. I wouldn’t even count that one, I had no chose in the matter, because I believe baptism to be an expression of my faith in Jesus Christ. I did not have that faith when I was an infant.
Anyone else here been baptized and do you think your baptism was counted in heaven? And were you dunked or sprinkled?
Pastor Greg, Would my being baptized at a Evangelical Free Church over thirty years ago count as far as Lighthouse is concerned? When we change to different Christian churches do we need to be re-baptized I guess is what I am asking?
i was baptized in a lutheran church as an infant….not recorded, it was not me proclaiming a personal faith, then i was baptized in lighthouse many years ago…dunked by the staff!!
my husband on the other hand was in desert storm, in saudia arabia in 1991… he gave his life to the lord over there by the leading of a fellow soldier… as the police action progressed to war, him and his buddy talked about baptism… they both wondered if they would return home alive… and jason wanted to be baptized…. his brother in the lord took a canteen cup, and some very very rare water, and sprinkled him, during the ‘church service’, to honor in front of all that he loves his lord…..
these last two baptisms are recorded in heaven somewhere, one submersion the other sprinkled….and i would fight anyone until im blue in the face to say my husbands baptism is recorded and noticed by his lord and savior….
baptism is an act of obediance, to proclaim to the world that we love jesus…. and solidifies faith within our own hearts at the same time, and it also gives you a day to look back on when things in life are bad and i am struggling, to say…”that is the day the old me died and the new me began, and i will pull myself up and go on!”
blessings!
heidi
So what gives anyone the “authority to do a baptism”? Any Scripture to back that authority up?
Matthew 28 (King James Version)
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
————————————————-
Jesus said He has ALL power, He then commands His disciples to;
1. Go
2. teach
and then 3. baptize
So the authority is given by Jesus.
“the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
Hi Jerry,
I’m back. I like that verse in Matthew as well. It appears Jesus was talking to his apostles (which then numbered 11). They had been ordained and had the authority to baptise. I agree, the authority comes from Jesus.
I think there were likely procedures in place even during biblical times relating to baptism. There must have been an orderly way to record who was baptised when, otherwise more situations like what was described in Acts 19 might have cropped up.
Here’s a good scripture pertaining to baptism:
“… as ye are desirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people and are willing to bear one another’s burdens that they may be light; yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea; and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life -
Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?”
As a side note, I was at CSI today (I take a few classes) and I noticed a Christian club was handing out donuts! Cool! I took a donut and with it he included a small piece of paper that had a scripture dealing with the two great commandments. Double cool! What’s kinda funny is that the guy who handed me the donut kinda looked like what I envision Pastor Fadness to look like. Was it him?
Anyway, like I keep preaching, I think if some members of Lighthouse really think Mormonism is bad and everything, they should probably try to convert members in a different way besides handing out anti-Mormon(ism) literature and trying to jump in front of moving cars in their attempts to distribute it. Maybe they should have been giving out free ice cream cones near the temple, or would have that been too much of a bribe?
And now I’ve seen that I’ve written a novel so I must close.
In Christ’s love …
Heidi,
Thanks for that testimony about your husband! How awesome! God is good, isn’t He? I truly believe that issues like “to sprinkle or to dunk” sounds like something to argue about over donuts (sprinkles or dunked in chocolate? I pick chocolate…) But arguing over which is the “correct” way to baptize? It is like smoke from the enemy, that’s all… If the enemy can’t pluck us from the hand of God, he’ll blow a lot (and I mean a LOT) of smoke to take our eyes off the Lord instead. Your husband’s baptism is recorded in heaven, no man needs to keep any record, it is the Lord’s job to know our hearts. :)
I, too was baptized in a Lutheran church as an infant. We have that in common. And we also have in common that we were dunked later in life when we were able to make that proclaimation ourselves. :)
Thanks again for sharing…
c
“Let’s just say I went down to Joe’s Angelic Ministry Church on the corner and some guy threw some water on me and said I was baptised. Would that baptism be recordered in heaven as having been done by the proper authority? I don’t think so …”
Robert, I think most Christians would disagree with the above statement. “Joe’s Angelic Ministry Church” baptism would count in heaven. Joe has the AUTHORITY to baptize in “the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”
Matthew 28:
19.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
This verse points to the triune God Christians worship. Notice in the name (singular). No need for the Nicene Creed mentioned above.
grace and peace,
Jerry
Hey, Robert:
If Icecream and Doughnuts will win you to Jesus, I’m in!…. where do you live? I’ll have them delivered!!!!
Blessings!
Well, no, but at least it would be a friendly approach to trying to get people interested in learning about “traditional” Christianity.
But like I’ve said before, I love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I love it much, much more than a temporary sugar fix.
Have a great day.
“But like I’ve said before, I love the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I love it much, much more than a temporary sugar fix.”
Well, I love the idea of chocolate cake not making me fat…but it isn’t true, is it? The Mormon gospel might give you warm fuzzies, but in the end it just doesn’t turn out to be God breathed.
I think I’ll stick to the Biblical gospel of Jesus Christ. And no, the mention of chocolate cake had nothing to do with your mention of a sugar fix, so don’t think I misunderstood your comment. I only mentioned the cake, because I’m trying to lose weight.
I also agree that giving away sweets might be a better way of getting the people to warm up to us, but I think there’s a fear of becoming too watered down about the gospel…something that is of eternal importance. So, while it’s important to get larger audiences to listen to the gospel, I don’t think that’s what was meant in the book of Ezekiel about the watchman on the wall…could you imagine if the watchman would have handed out cupcakes instead of warning the villagers of trouble?
See, Robert…. the thing you should watch out for is that we could actually become your friends…. you know, we really do, truly, sincerely love and care about you. :o)
christa,
you are sweet and i have a feeling we have more in common than we both realize…. thanks for the encouraging words and thnaks for appreciating my husbands testimony… he is such a wonderful man in the lord and i thank god for him daily…
jennifer,
i to walk along side you with the choice of walking with the bibles version of jesus… may we each stay close and true to him!!
to all,
glazed doughnuts are my fav..
and a sugar cone with pistacio almond ice cream is my fav also….hahahahhaha
blessing to all!
heidi
Ya’ll are making me hungry with all the food talk…
We could almost get into a theological discussion answering the question -is sugar the devil? ;) wink
Well, from a different angle, my parents had a bakery in a small town in California. I learned to bake from a great baker named Ben. I started by doing cakes, baking from scratch, learning to decorate cakes, and I progressed to later running the bakery when Ben quit. During that process, I learned to make many things, like candy, pastries, donuts, pies, cheesecakes, and even somethings not loaded with sugar; bread. So, my question is, is the sugar the devil or the person who makes all the sweet stuff out of the sugar? What do you think, Christa? And try not to hurt my feelings.
I think until there’s a fake sugar that’s good for you and tastes just like the real thing, it’s the devil. I might just be saying that because sugar is pretty much off limits for me while I’m trying to get rid of some extra “baggage.”
It’s funny how quickly subjects change. I bet this is something we still won’t all agree on…
sorry to say but bread is laoded with sugar too…. its just in the form of carbohydrate, and our body treats it just like sugar…. that is why on labels sugar is under the carbo catergory!!so sugar to me is insanely devil-ish…. my problems arent on the sweet end of sugar but on the starch (carbohydrate)end,,, yum yum!!
So maybe if we had some donuts to go with the newspaper we were handing out at the temple more people would have taken one? I will try and remember that when I help at the next temple opening.
Did you ever read that newspaper Robert?
http://www.mrm.org/files/tracts/TempleNewspaper.pdf
Great discussion today on the subject of;
A biblical definition of “Christian”
http://blog.mrm.org/2008/09/a-biblical-definition-of-christian/
This is on the Mormon coffee blog which is connected with Bill McKeever. Bill was one of the Thursday night speakers in town during the temple opening.
Caleb,
I made this comment above on your point 17 about baptizing the dead:
“So Caleb, the whole doctrine of baptism for the dead is built on one verse where Paul says they, not we, are baptized for the dead. Pretty weak.”
This was your response:
“Point 17. Jerry makes another good attempt to wrest what the scriptures actually say and twist or in this case ignore what this verse says. Jerry do you really believe all of the Bible or is this “one verse” something that is convenient for you to skip over, because you are not abiding by it. Your explanation to skip over this verse is very weak and makes me wonder if you have fully read all of Chapter 15 of 1st Corinthians. In 1 Cor. 15:12 Paul says, “Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no ressurection of the dead?” Evidently many of these people did no longer believe in the resurrection. Paul then makes point after point to proof the resurrection to these people. One of these proofs that Paul makes to them is in Verse 29, “Else what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” These Saints in the early Church in Corinth were practicing baptism for the dead. Paul asks them why they are doing baptisms for the dead if there is no resurrection. Driving another point home that there is a resurrection. He did not say there was anything wrong with this practice. Jerry does Lighthouse do baptisms for the dead, like the early Saints did in Corinth? If not, then why is it not doing what the early Church of Jesus Christ did?”
Like I said, baptisms for the dead are only mentioned in this one verse in the Bible. Again Paul says “they” not “we” are baptized for the dead. He is not including himself in this practice. Paul is saying that it does not make sense to baptize dead people when you don’t believe in the resurrection anyway.
I thought of a few good questions for you.
1.Did Jesus ever do baptisms for the dead?
2.Did He teach his apostles to do baptisms for the dead?
3.If baptisms for the dead are so important for people to get a second chance to receive the “gospel” in the after life as the LDS make it out to be, DON”T YOU THINK JESUS MIGHT HAVE MENTIONED THIS PRACTICE TO HIS DISCIPLES?
When we mention skipping over a single verse because it doesn’t fit your doctrine a couple come to mind for me. 1 Timothy 1:4, Titus 3:9
Interesting that Corinthians is a book correcting the church. Paul was pointing out the things in the church that needed to be fixed. In his second letter to the Corinthians, he even says, “I hope my first letter wasn’t to painful, but it was necessary”. 2 Corinthians 7:8.
Paul is indeed saying to them that the resurrection is real. He makes a number of points proving the resurrection. Apparently there was a group that was influencing the Corinthian church that denied the resurrection. Not very likely the church itself, because he then says, “See they (those that do not believe in the resurrection) even contradict themselves by baptising for the dead.” They, not we, not you. If he was speaking about the Corinthian believers in a letter to the Corinthian believers, wouldn’t he have said, “you”, or “we”?
I think we need to be a little careful about jumping on the, “This is the way the first century church did it, so we should do it that way too” wagon, in regard to Corinthians. Way better to look at versus like Acts 2:42 and surrounding passages to see what God’s heart is for His Church.
Jerry, you call that a newspaper? I think the label “anti-Mormon(ism) propaganda” fits much better.
Oh Jerry, the person making the sweets is my friend not the devil, lol! I was just reading the list of things you learned to make and was thinking you ought to become my best friend, lol! But that silly ol’ sugar is still the bad guy. I am not one to kill the messenger… :)
c
but did you read it?
To say it’s “anti” material, you must be able to prove that it isn’t true. If this church is spreading lies about your religion, then we should be called a group of anti-mormonists. But if we’re spreading the truth of God’s word, then we’re evangelists. Are we “anti” because we preach a different message than yours?
Or do you think we’re so preoccupied with putting an end to mormonism that instead of preaching a Christian message for our Sunday services, we only preach negative things about mormons?
Trust me, at least with the Christian church I attend, we stick to the Bible, like everyone who calls themselves Christian should.
By the way, if you would like to read more on my beliefs, visit this blog:
http://www.womanonfire4god.blogspot.com
CHANGES MADE TO THE BOOK OF MORMON
_______________________________________________
1830 edition: 1 Nephi 11
18 And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin which thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh.
current edition: 1 Nephi 11
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.
________________________________________________
http://www.mazeministry.com/machine/index.htm
This quote is from Jim Spencer:
“This verse and three others just like it (I Nephi 11:21; 11:32; & 13:40) reflect an interesting change in a foundational theology of Mormonism. I think a special insight into Mormonism is found in these verses.
“Today, Mormon theology is polytheistic. It’s central teaching is that men may become gods. It is summarized in the Lorenzo Snow couplet all active Latter-day Saints recite: “As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may become.”
“However, this theology developed long after the Book of Mormon was published in 1830. The doctrine of plurality of gods—which Joseph Smith taught and boasted about teaching—is not found in the Book of Mormon. It wasn’t found in 1830 and it isn’t found now (except in these four changed verses).”
________________________________________________
1830 edition: 1 Nephi 11
21 And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
current edition: 1 Nephi 11
21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father! Knowest thou the meaning of the tree which thy father saw?
________________________________________________
1830 edition: 1 Nephi 11
32 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying, look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Everlasting God, was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.
current edition: 1 Nephi 11
32 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me again, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people; yea, the Son of the everlasting God was judged of the world; and I saw and bear record.
________________________________________________
1830 edition: 1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which is of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Saviour of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved;
current edition: 1 Nephi 13
40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved.
________________________________________________
Changes made in these verses:
1 Nephi 11:18
“God” changed to “Son of God”
1 Nephi 11:21
“the Eternal Father” changed to “the Son of the Eternal Father”
1 Nephi 11:32
“the Everlasting God” changed to “the Son of the everlasting God”
1 Nephi 13:40
“the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father” changed to “the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father”
__________________________________________________
Again Jim’s quote:
“The doctrine of plurality of gods—which Joseph Smith taught and boasted about teaching—is not found in the Book of Mormon. It wasn’t found in 1830 and it isn’t found now (except in these four changed verses)”
OK Jennifer, I will call you an anti-Mormonist from here on out.
Thanks for giving me permission because yes, many of your beliefs about the LDS church simply aren’t true.
Just to be fair, you can call me an anti-traditional Christianityist. I believe traditional Christianity has been shaped by doctrines of men.
I gained more respect for Pastor Greg during one of the latest posts on the Times-News web site. A guy named Eric explained why the LDS church believes in certain doctrines and the scriptural basis for them. Greg agreed that the two could agree to disagree. That’s what I’m looking for.
I’m not holding much hope of persuading (with the help of the Spirit, of course) people at Lighthouse to baptised into the LDS church. I think that would require more faith than thinking Lighthouse was going to win its football game against Oakley (wink). What I’m looking for is just a little respect for what I believe is the restored church of Jesus Christ. When a church has shown over the years that it likes to distribute anti-Mormon(ist) literature and hold anti-Mormon(ist) gatherings, it really disappoints me. But on a positive note, you are helping to fulfill the prophesy that Joseph Smith will be known for both good and evil.
Hey Jerry, blah, blah, blah (smile)
So Robert, tell me something, do you think it would be acceptable for someone to make the kind of changes to the Bible that Joseph made to the Book of Mormon? Do you think most people would accept those changes?
Again you won’t answer, so I’ll answer. Someone did make some major changes to the Bible. I’ll give you a clue who that was. J.S. Yep, the same guy who made so many changes to his own book (the Book of Mormon) also tried to do the same with the bible. Ever hear of the Joseph Smith Translation? JST. The LDS religion didn’t even accept what Joe did with the Bible. If they did, the JST would be published by the LDS and not the King James Version.
Blah, blah, blah. At least people are getting to read the truth about the FALSE prophet Joseph Smith.
Robert:
I think everyone here can agree that we all respect your decision to stand by your religion. It’s a God-given right and priviledge to do that. In fact, I believe it is exactly the point we are trying to make. As I said in my very first post to you, the reason we are so passionate about this is because you DO have a choice to believe what you want to. If the LDS doctrine is in error,and it turns out that the Bible really is the infallable WORD of God, the defense for your views and demand for acceptance will cost you everything eternally….Still, It’s your choice.
Makes me wonder, if you’re not here to evangelize us, or to search for answers (which, by the way, have been clearly given to you)Why are you here? As I stated in my last post…. we have grown rather fond of you. We pray for you, we like your quirky, funky comments… even if they are a bit warpped….(double wink) Maybe you should come hang out with us on a Sunday…. we promise we will still respect your right to chose your own way. Come worship with us….you might be surprised at what you find. We begin services this Sunday at Eastland…10:30 I won’t tell a soul that you stepped foot in our facility. C’mon….
If many of the things we believe true about the mormons aren’t true, then enlighten us which of these isn’t true?
Mormons believe:
–God was once a man.
–Mormons can become Gods
–Couples who are sealed in the temple are married for eternity.
–There is no trinity
–Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.
–God came to earth over 2,000 years ago and physically had sex with Mary, hence Jesus was conceived.
–There is a Heavenly Mother.
–No one will get to heaven without the permission of Joseph Smith.
–There are multiple levels of heaven, the top tier reserved only for Mormons.
Well, we’ll start with those…Are any of them not true? Because I can quote Mormon sources for each one of them.
I find it odd that Christians who believe solely in the God of the Bible can pretty much all agree on their core beliefs, but 20 different Mormons will give 20 different lists of what they believe, and they usually don’t coincide with each other. Why is this?? I mean, since God is not a God of confusion as Robert often likes to say…
Jennifer
“–God came to earth over 2,000 years ago and physically had sex with Mary, hence Jesus was conceived.”
And Mary being god’s (Elohim) spirit daughter, doesn’t that sound like incest to you?
And here is a quote from Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1979, p. 547
“Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.”
Great list Jennifer, keep adding to it. And how about giving some of those Mormon quotes, I would like to see if yours match up with mine.
Jerry
Jennifer let’s add to the list
-Quaker-like people live on the moon. Joseph Smith
-Quaker-like people also live on the sun. Brigham Young
-Adam is God. Brigham Young
-The Garden of Eden is in Missouri. Joseph Smith
-Women have to be called from the grave by husband-gods.
-Blacks have the curse of Cain.
-If a person becomes Mormon, their skin will become whiter.
I’ll get that list for you. Tomorrow maybe. I’m feeling kind of sick tonight so I think I’m going to get off to bed and maybe feel better tomorrow. Thanks for your addition to my list. Some of that I didn’t know. Very interesting…and strange. Quaker-like people on the moon? Who knew?
Oh and one more thing…if God had sex with Mary, wasn’t he cheating on Heavenly Mother?? If God is perfect, how could he commit adultery??
ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT…
I got a question that will stump the whole LOT of you!
Can God microwave a burrito SO HOT that He Himself cannot eat it??
HA! Take that, Christians!
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. Deuteronomy 8:3
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Mathew 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4
I think this covers burrito’s too. My question to you is, why would he want to? I’ll bet God can make a perfect burrito that we would all enjoy. I can’t wait to belly up to God’s table and have a feast of a lifetime!
God Bless,
~Bruce
You strayed very far from my question, Bruce. To answer your question… because God quite possibly likes his burrito’s so hot that he himself cannot eat them. The question is COULD he still eat it, along with bread and the Word of God?
Can’t wait for my big burrito in heaven, by the way.